Multiple Infractions

[bigwave916]

I played in a medal play tournament flighted by handicap this weekend. Opponents Able and Baker knew each other and were riding in the same cart. I'm riding with Mr. Charles. During the round Able and Baker were playing like partners, Baker giving advice to Mr Able on where to hit and on one occasion, he went forward to show Mr. Able the line on a blind shot over a bunker. I'm not sure whether that's against the rules, but I'm pretty sure when he retrieved the bunker rake and layed it down like an arrow pointing the way, that's against the rules. I was lining up a putt on the same line as theirs and I felt like I was in the batter's box with a catcher squatting behind me and an umpire leaning over his shoulder. I know this is not a violation of the rules, just a breach in etiquette maybe. On another occasion, Mr. Able hits into the woods, marked as a hazard. Goes into the woods and comes out saying "I'm taking an unplayable" If I understand correctly unplayable can be dropped anywhere along the line from the spot no nearer the hole. Or within two club lengths of the spot in any direction but no nearer to the hole. In this case that would put him further into the woods. So he brings the ball out and carries it 10 - 12 yards up the slope and drops it. Not two club lengths from the point where it entered the hazard. I pointed it out to him and we talked about it, and I told him its just the 4 of us in the flight today, don't worry about." Par 3 hole and Mr. Charles and I jump up to hit. Charles hits an iron on the left fringe, pin high, and Mr. Able says "What did you hit, Charles?" Charles says 'that was my pretty 5 iron" I'm laughing to myself at this point. On the next hole and Mr. Able pulls one way left and into the woods. He hits another ball without announcing that he's hitting a provisional. Even though I always announce my provisional I know some guys just hit another and everyone knows they are hitting a provisional. When he finds his ball in the woods, he picks it up and decides that he likes his "provisional" better. To cap it all off he played the wrong ball out of 17 fairway and seemed to be a little ticked off that he had to take a 2 stroke penalty. I believe that when playing for money or any kind of trophy or prize you should play by the rules unless there are special circumstances called for by tournament officials before the round. The only penalty in the list above that I insisted this guy take was the 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball. I also believe in protecting the field. Since we only had 4 in the flight and I was going to be second behind Mr. Able, that there was no one to protect other than in our group. I let this go, he got the win, and I feel OK with letting it go. Sometimes I feel as though I take the rules too seriously, but had this guy beaten out another player in another 4 some (if we'd had more guys in the flight) I would have felt pretty bad about not insisting Mr. Able and Mr. Baker play by the rules. I'm interested to hear your opinions.

[Rulesman]

On another occasion, Mr. Able hits into the woods, marked as a hazard. Goes into the woods and comes out saying "I'm taking an unplayable" If I understand correctly unplayable can be dropped anywhere along the line from the spot no nearer the hole. Or within two club lengths of the spot in any direction but no nearer to the hole. In this case that would put him further into the woods. So he brings the ball out and carries it 10 - 12 yards up the slope and drops it. Not two club lengths from the point where it entered the hazard. I pointed it out to him and we talked about it, and I told him its just the 4 of us in the flight today, don't worry about.".

Apart from not getting the unplayable procedure right, in fact he can't declare a ball unplayable in a water hazard. He must proceed under the Water Hazard rule (26).

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

It sounds like the entire round was full of rule violations by Mr Able, and you let them go and he won the flight?

[bigwave916]

It was not a water hazard but a boundry marked by red stakes. Courses in the Carolinas, and I assume most every where else are marking dense woods and marsh lands as hazard with red stakes so that they avoid stroke and distance penalty and trips back to the tee to hit or even the extra time to hit provisional balls.

[bigwave916]

It sounds like the entire round was full of rule violations by Mr Able, and you let them go and he won the flight?

Yes, I was 2 strokes back at the turn, 3 back after the 10th. He had just the one violation on the front and that was putting a bunker rake on the hill behind the bunker to mark the direction to the center green. 2 storkes for that infraction and we would've been even at the turn. The only one I insisted on was 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball on 17 but there were at lest 4 more strokes I could've called on him. On top of that we were more than one hole behind and the group behind us was having to wait on every shot. So taking the time to discuss rules violations, would have held us up even more. In retrospect, I guess we could've let the group behind play through, which I've never seen in a tournament. Then called him on each of the infractions. I don't want to feel like some hard nosed guy that can't stand losing and has to make calls on the rules, but then again I feel cheated when I'm playing by the book and someone else takes liberties with the rules. I do feel a responsibility to protect the field and in different circumstances, I would have definitely called him on each and every one. Wouldn't like it, but there is a reason why USGA sends out a rule book with your membership each year. The tour organization does too. I've got quite a few copies and I'm sure this guy has received at least one.

[DrvFrShow]

They did that around here on one course with the woods, except they're not marked. +1 stroke, two club lengths at point of entry. Good luck finding your ball. Better luck hitting out of them. They need to remove about 1000 trees from the course. No one would miss them. When they built the course they just took a bulldozer and cleared the fairways.

Tournaments are different than casual rounds. You should have called him on his bad behavior.

[bigwave916]

They did that around here on one course with the woods, except they're not marked. +1 stroke, two club lengths at point of entry. Good luck finding your ball. Better luck hitting out of them. They need to remove about 1000 trees from the course. No one would miss them. When they built the course they just took a bulldozer and cleared the fairways. Tournaments are different than casual rounds. You should have called him on his bad behavior.

Thanks for your feedback. I know very well the two are different. I know you are right that I should have called him on it. Looking at it another way, if I called him on the first one he might have played poorly the rest of the round. I wonder if I should have pointed it out at the moment it occurred or when we were marking the scorecards.

[boogielicious]

I played in a medal play tournament flighted by handicap this weekend.

Opponents Able and Baker knew each other and were riding in the same cart. I'm riding with Mr. Charles.

During the round Able and Baker were playing like partners, Baker giving advice to Mr Able on where to hit and on one occasion, he went forward to show Mr. Able the line on a blind shot over a bunker. I'm not sure whether that's against the rules, but I'm pretty sure when he retrieved the bunker rake and layed it down like an arrow pointing the way, that's against the rules.

I was lining up a putt on the same line as theirs and I felt like I was in the batter's box with a catcher squatting behind me and an umpire leaning over his shoulder. I know this is not a violation of the rules, just a breach in etiquette maybe.

On another occasion, Mr. Able hits into the woods, marked as a hazard. Goes into the woods and comes out saying "I'm taking an unplayable" If I understand correctly unplayable can be dropped anywhere along the line from the spot no nearer the hole. Or within two club lengths of the spot in any direction but no nearer to the hole. In this case that would put him further into the woods. So he brings the ball out and carries it 10 - 12 yards up the slope and drops it. Not two club lengths from the point where it entered the hazard. I pointed it out to him and we talked about it, and I told him its just the 4 of us in the flight today, don't worry about."

Par 3 hole and Mr. Charles and I jump up to hit. Charles hits an iron on the left fringe, pin high, and Mr. Able says "What did you hit, Charles?" Charles says 'that was my pretty 5 iron" I'm laughing to myself at this point.

On the next hole and Mr. Able pulls one way left and into the woods. He hits another ball without announcing that he's hitting a provisional. Even though I always announce my provisional I know some guys just hit another and everyone knows they are hitting a provisional. When he finds his ball in the woods, he picks it up and decides that he likes his "provisional" better.

To cap it all off he played the wrong ball out of 17 fairway and seemed to be a little ticked off that he had to take a 2 stroke penalty.

I believe that when playing for money or any kind of trophy or prize you should play by the rules unless there are special circumstances called for by tournament officials before the round. The only penalty in the list above that I insisted this guy take was the 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball.

I also believe in protecting the field. Since we only had 4 in the flight and I was going to be second behind Mr. Able, that there was no one to protect other than in our group. I let this go, he got the win, and I feel OK with letting it go. Sometimes I feel as though I take the rules too seriously, but had this guy beaten out another player in another 4 some (if we'd had more guys in the flight) I would have felt pretty bad about not insisting Mr. Able and Mr. Baker play by the rules.

I'm interested to hear your opinions.

I would bring it up to the committee that ran the tournament. It appears there were a number of violations including advice to the fellow competitor.

[bigwave916]

I would bring it up to the committee that ran the tournament. It appears there were a number of violations including advice to the fellow competitor.

Yes, I sent an email telling the director same thing I've told all of you. I'm not trying to change yesterday's result, but I think these two should be separaed in future tournaments. If I play with the same guys again, or anybody else for that matter, I'm going to insist that they play by the rules, or at least invoke rule 3-3 and he/she can play 2 balls to complete the hole and then let the tournament committe sort it out at scoring.

[newtogolf]

Seems like Able, Baker and Charles weren't aware the tournament was to be played by the rules of golf and treated it more like a casual round since you were the only four in the flight.

Those are tough calls, especially if this is your home club.  Trying to enforce rules other golfers don't know or like makes you the outsider and it's an uncomfortable situation to be in so I can understand why you handled it the way you did.

Might be best in the future to make it clear everyone is supposed to play by the ROG so the expectation is established at the beginning.

[bigwave916]

Seems like Able, Baker and Charles weren't aware the tournament was to be played by the rules of golf and treated it more like a casual round since you were the only four in the flight. Those are tough calls, especially if this is your home club.  Trying to enforce rules other golfers don't know or like makes you the outsider and it's an uncomfortable situation to be in so I can understand why you handled it the way you did. Might be best in the future to make it clear everyone is supposed to play by the ROG so the expectation is established at the beginning.

Joe, I think you summed it up pretty well. Although its not my home club, the tournament organization is almost like a home club because there is always a chance you will be playing with the same people again. In fact, this was my third round playing with my cart partner (Charles) Thanks for the feedback.

[Asheville]

It was not a water hazard but a boundry marked by red stakes. Courses in the Carolinas, and I assume most every where else are marking dense woods and marsh lands as hazard with red stakes so that they avoid stroke and distance penalty and trips back to the tee to hit or even the extra time to hit provisional balls.

Connestee Falls?

[ColinL]

It was not a water hazard but a boundry marked by red stakes. Courses in the Carolinas, and I assume most every where else are marking dense woods and marsh lands as hazard with red stakes so that they avoid stroke and distance penalty and trips back to the tee to hit or even the extra time to hit provisional balls.

If it's marked by red stakes, it's a lateral water hazard..... even if it doesn't  meet the Definition of a water hazard.

On a total off topic aside, from what mental archive  did Able, Baker and Charlie appear?  Sadly for for Messrs Able and Baker, only Charile survived to appear in the NATO  phonetic alphabet of the 1950s!

[Club Rat]

I've had situations on occasion where I've pulled an opponent aside and spoke with them about circumstances.

First I'll say "by no means players are rules official's, but they will need speak to the Head Pro for the correct ruling."

If they then do something which is questionable, at least you've indicated they will need to discuss their actions.

Several times, I have told players to play two balls, one under circumstances of each to complete the hole, then find out the correct ruling before they turn in their scorecard.

Always try to keep the circumstances friendly and in good sportsmanship.

Club Rat

[DrvFrShow]

Trying to enforce rules other golfers don't know ... makes you the outsider and it's an uncomfortable situation to be in.

Yes, it does. Especially when sometimes they're on the rules committee, as happened in my club recently.

[wadesworld]

Yes, it does. Especially when sometimes they're on the rules committee, as happened in my club recently.

One needs to have some confidence in their understanding of the rules and not be intimated by others, as it's not uncommon for people to try to assert themselves even when they're wrong.  Often they don't even know they're wrong.

Recently in a tournament, I had a player argue with me about a rule involving a fellow-competitor's drop.  I told him (politely) that he was wrong, and I was 100% sure he was wrong.  He continued to insist in a very authoritative and somewhat condescending tone, expecting me to back down.  I stood my ground and said I'll be happy to show you in the rule book.  At that point because players were waiting on the tee, he begrudgingly relented.  On the next tee box he said, "You might be right according to the book - I don't know, but I've been hearing golf announcers say it my way for 30 years."

Yesterday in a tournament, I corrected several misstatements from a guy who had been on a rules committee, though to his credit he admitted it was years ago, he had forgotten much and was thankful for the information.

If you're not confident of your position and someone is trying to get you to back down, simply suggest that two balls be played (stroke-play) and the correct ruling obtained at the scoring tent.

As you say though, the politics of relationships can make it even more difficult.

[bigwave916]

If it's marked by red stakes, it's a lateral water hazard..... even if it doesn't  meet the Definition of a water hazard. On a total off topic aside, from what mental archive  did Able, Baker and Charlie appear?  Sadly for for Messrs Able and Baker, only Charile survived to appear in the NATO  phonetic alphabet of the 1950s!

Obviously, I didn't want to use their real names, so instead of player A, B, and C, I just chose Able, Baker, Charlie.......I guess that makes me Delta.

[bigwave916]

Thanks for all the feedback. You all made some good points. I got a real nice answer back from the Tour Director last night and he's going to have a conversation with the person I called Able. He also said he would pair them with people who understand the rules and who might be affected in the standings by rules infractions. The guy is really good at this and I'd say we probably have the best or one of the best that there is. If he says he'll address it, I am 100% confident that he will.