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Feel v. Video


TMO
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  1. 1. Will you abandon a swing change if it feels wrong?

    • Yes
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    • No
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I am seeing a lot - and I do mean a lot - of people that are talking about a technical fix not "feeling" right and therefore abandoning it. I have a pretty strong opinion about this but I am curious about all of your thoughts. How much of your development do you base on feel?

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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Fortunately all the swing changes I've made since I started getting lessons have made my swing feel a lot better but as long as I've had it explained to me why the particular swing change will help my swing then I'll stick with it even if it didn't feel right. Of course things will feel a bit odd when you first make a change because you're doing something different but most swing changes that teaching pros get you to make are making you swing more fundamentally sound so it's worth sticking with them.
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If the change you need to make is a fairly sizeable one, my experience has been that it feels strange, if not really bad, at first.

Case in point. Last year I finally found a good teaching pro. He showed me on video some of my flaws. My hands were way to low at setup, I had a terrible lateral shift on the downswing. He had me set up higher, and swing with my left hip against a chair (to encourage a pivot rather than a shift). At first, it felt terrible. The practice sessions were ugly, my ballstriking was worse at first. I thought about just going back to the old way because I was so frustrated.

Two months later, I had dropped an average of four strokes per round or so. From mid-high 80's to low-mid 80's. I will never doubt this guy again.

In my bag:

Cleveland Hi Bore XLS 8.5* X Stiff
Mizuno MP 650 13*
Halo 22 Deg Apex Plus 4-E Apex Plus Gap Wedge CG15 54 Deg CG10 58 Deg Anser 4 ProV1x

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I started filming my swing regularly about a month ago. I'm not ready to post it online yet though for you all to critique. Maybe when I'm consistently in the 80s.

But anyway, my BIG problem is spine angle. I lean about 5-6 inches closer to the ball on my back swing. Obviously, this is incorrect. I've been practicing keeping my head still, and it feels really really weird and wrong. But I know it's correct because when I keep my head still in video, my swing looks text book as hell.

Constantine

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I think it is funny right now that everyone is willing to speak up about not making a change related to feel but yet if it comes to ball position on another thread that is all I read about. "Feels" like there is something going on here.

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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A friend of mine's the worst at this. It doesn't help that he has a healthy dose of "going to the course too early."

He'll pay his $50 for half an hour with the pro, who will tell him something like "square up your stance and your clubhead." He'll do that. I'll watch him hit balls after his 30 minutes are up. He'll be hitting the ball great, with the occasional bad shot due to the fact that it's all new to him and he doesn't trust it yet.

Then he'll go play 18 holes. By about the fourth hole - the first time he hits one of those "doesn't quite feel right" shots - he'll say "nope, doesn't work" and immediately revert back to his previously sucky methods, which work even less often but which, I suppose, "fail more reliably."

My general credo for a swing change is to make them so that you feel uncomfortable with the change. If something feels comfortable right away, you're likely not doing it right. I think I just read something about "ten things you have to do when you get a lesson" in one of the monthly golf mags just recently.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I think it is funny right now that everyone is willing to speak up about not making a change related to feel but yet if it comes to ball position on another thread that is all I read about. "Feels" like there is something going on here.

When i spoke of feel, what i meant was i had inconsistencies using the hogan system in how I was setting up and how i was striking the ball. The advice I recieved from the local pro I take my lessons was another system which he uses and teaches. It was awkward at first but I found in the long run it made me more consistant in my ball striking and ball positioning, not that I ignored any advice or went back to an old system because anything I have been taught didnt feel right. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Bottom line how I take advice from my pro. He's a scratch golfer, if hes telling me I'm doing something wrong, I am, I do it his way until it comes natural and I see big change. Any advice from someone who teaches golf for a living and has decades of experience is better than anything that might feel better to me.

In the bag:

Burner 460 Ti Driver 10.5°, Stiff shaft
Burner Steel 3 wood, Stiff Shaft
Burner Steel 5 wood, Stiff Shaft Burner Rescue 3, Stiff Shaft Tour Burner Irons 4-PW Z TP 52° Wedge Z TP 56° Wedge White Hot 2-ball

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When i spoke of feel, what i meant was i had inconsistencies using the hogan system in how I was setting up and how i was striking the ball. The advice I recieved from the local pro I take my lessons was another system which he uses and teaches. It was awkward at first but I found in the long run it made me more consistant in my ball striking and ball positioning, not that I ignored any advice or went back to an old system because anything I have been taught didnt feel right. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Don't worry, it's not just you. I was just citing an example. Trust me, rampant on the boards.

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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Seems I was the first one to say 'YES'.

I have been playing and teaching racket sports, esp. tennis all my life, and I have a pretty good feel for 'swinging'.
If I realize that a I am doing something that cannot be a stable motion, meaning I wont ever be able to repeat it 100 times over the same way, then it does not feel right and I will abandon it.

There are some basic elements that need to be there, so that the motion can be called a golf swing. These elements will stay stable whatever swing speed or swing style there is. In other words they are scalable.

When I try something that I come to the conclusion that I will lose, if I swing faster, then for me it is not scalable and it feels wrong, so I will abandon it.

In my Tour Combo Bag:

Driver: Superquad 9.5°
5W: 2008 Burner 18°
3H: Idea Pro Gold 20°4H: 2008 Burner Rescue 22°Irons: MP52 R300 5-PWedges: Vokey SM 50.08, 54.11, 58.04, 60.11Putter: Itsy Bitsy SpiderBall: TP Red

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If it feels right then it's not a change.

No matter what, the majority, if not all, swing changes that one makes to improve one's swing will feel weird or wrong at first.

You can ask almost any teaching pro and I would say that 90% would agree that all changes will feel uncomfortable at first.
Taylormade R9 TP 9.5*w/ Diamana Kai'li 70 S (SST PURE)
Callaway FT 3 Wood
Adams Pro Black Hybrid 20* w/ Voodoo NV8 S
MP-68 3-PW irons w/ KBS Tour X-flex (softstepped 1x)
Cleveland CG-12 52.10Cleveland CG-15 DSG 56.08 Vokey Limited Edition 60-V w/ KBS black nickel S-FlexCircle T Beached Center Shaft...
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Just my very quick and personal take on this. If I am in pain, then I will stop the change ... for now. But I absolutely do not trust my body other than that. I trust my video camera. If my swing feels good but is not fundamentally sound then work hard until what is fundamentally sound feels natural. That's why I personally believe that video cameras have revolutionized the game. But perhaps that is just my opinion.

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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Just my very quick and personal take on this. If I am in pain, then I will stop the change ... for now. But I absolutely do not trust my body other than that. I trust my video camera. If my swing feels good but is not fundamentally sound then work hard until what is fundamentally sound feels natural. That's why I personally believe that video cameras have revolutionized the game. But perhaps that is just my opinion.

+1

regards,
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Seems I was the first one to say 'YES'.

I completely agree and I would say all upper level atheltes would as well. If you can't repeat a motion consistently you need to find a different way to go about it.

DBake
Titleist 909D3 10.5* Tour Green 89 Stiff
Titleist 906F2 15* v2 85 Stiff
Mizuno MP-30 2-PW S300
Mizuno MP-R 52* & 59*Scotty Cameron Studio Design 1.5Titleist Pro V1Leupold GX-1The Home Course (75.7/130)
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Just my very quick and personal take on this. If I am in pain, then I will stop the change ... for now. But I absolutely do not trust my body other than that. I trust my video camera. If my swing feels good but is not fundamentally sound then work hard until what is fundamentally sound feels natural. That's why I personally believe that video cameras have revolutionized the game. But perhaps that is just my opinion.

+1, video has brought motion effeciently, i.e. power, rhythm, and consistency

DBake
Titleist 909D3 10.5* Tour Green 89 Stiff
Titleist 906F2 15* v2 85 Stiff
Mizuno MP-30 2-PW S300
Mizuno MP-R 52* & 59*Scotty Cameron Studio Design 1.5Titleist Pro V1Leupold GX-1The Home Course (75.7/130)
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The funny thing about making changes to your swing is, what will feel weird today will feel normal after a month or so. I went and took lessons from a good teaching pro a few years ago and he changed my swing totally: my grip, my setup, my swing path, pretty much every thing. Took some time but now it doesn't feel right if I'm not doing this stuff. So stick with it and give it time.

Clubs:
Driver: Ping Rapture 10.5 degree, Stiff Flex shaft
Fairway Wood: Ping Rapture 17* - Stiff Shaft
Hybrids: Callaway Heaven Wood 20* Firm Flex
Irons: Titleist 704 CB (Forged) (4-PW), Dynamic Gold S300 ShaftsWedges: Titleist Vokey 52 and 58 degreePutter: Odessy White Hot XG Model #1Bag: Ping HooferBa...

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I use my teaching pro instead of video. If a change he suggests doesn't feel good, it's usually because I haven't integrated the change from an intellectual concept to the body movement the words describe. I find that words are a poor language for communicating a movement pattern as complex as the golf swing. Very much Plato's shadows on the cave wall. Sometimes I discover a feel for the first time, and the words that he has used to describe it immediately jump into my head. "Oh, that's what he means by that!" I wish I'd learned this sport as a child!
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Video has accelerated my learning curve and allowed me to pinpoint swing faults in just minutes. Being a high handicapper, my learning curve already is pretty good (as it really wasn't that hard to become a 17 handicapper), so this has been a lot of fun. I love it and showed it to a good friend mine and he was blown away by how much fun it is to film your swing from multiple angles and then sitting around and analyzing it. What's also fun is when I compare my swing from 3-4 weeks ago with swings I've made in the past couple days. I guess I film maybe once every couple days or so. Maybe when I have a massive library of my swing evolution, I will make and edit a movie of me evolving as a golfer.

Constantine

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I primarily use ball flight and how the club reacts at impact to analyse the swing. The ball flight tell me very much and it's impossible not to get feedback from how the club hits ball and the ground.

I have learned that a swing change is supposed to feel weird. If it doesn't, I'm not doing anything different.

I often get revelations while practicing. I recently saw a picture of someone swinging at a ball with a nail pictured underneath the ball in a low angle into the ground to illustrate the feeling of hitting down on the ball. It gave a better description of how to hit down on the ball than anything I have ever heard, read or seen.

Video is also something I use to analyse my swing. It's impossible to tell from my swing how the body and club move, using a video to review and pick up something here and there have I found useful.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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Note: This thread is 5476 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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