Help Resolve this Disagreement about Yardages!!

**verse214** · August 24, 2009

So my colleague and I were having a discussion about the calculation of yardages in golf and whether altitude plays a role in its calculation.

For example - when playing a downhill par 3, is the yardage the straight line using a laser range finder from tee box to middle of the green?

Or is it the yardage that you walk (downhill) to the middle of the green like if you placed a huge tape measure down on the ground?

Thanks!

**sacm3bill** · August 24, 2009

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but aren't those 2 the same thing?

**clubchamp** · August 24, 2009

If I'm understanding you correctly if you walked it off perfectly you would come up with the same yardage as the range finder. If the range finder has a slope feature it will calculate the elevation and the numbers would be different. Now if your trying to say by walking it off you get the elevation change in your yardage the answer would be no.

***iacas*** · August 24, 2009

Yeah, the original two options are the same thing.

What you want to ask is whether course yardages are measured flat or straight-line. Those may not be the real terms, but that's what I'm calling them.

Flat: everything is raised or lowered perfectly vertically and measurements are taken along that route. This is how you'd get numbers in, for example, Google Earth or from a plane or whatnot.

Straight-line: from your eyes to the flag, up or down along whatever angle it is. These numbers will always be longer than the "flat" measurements because the hypotenuse is longer than the other two sides of a right triangle.

Various courses probably employ a mixture. Some do it one way, others do it the other way. Some might even do it both ways and others probably just guess.

**verse214** · August 24, 2009

OK - Let me rephrase.

Let's say you have a tee box on top of a hill. The hill slopes downwards x yards and then inclines back up x yards with the hole at the top after the incline.

Let's also say that when you look at the hole from the tee box the straight line distance is y yards: directly from tee to hole, totally disregarding the incline/decline

Is the distance to the hole x+x or is it y?

In other words do yardages take undulations into account? If you have a hole with a ton of undulations will it increase the yardage as opposed to a flat fairway?

I originally tried to liken it to laying down a huge tape measure. My colleague is saying that yardages take the literal yard distance it takes to walk the hole so the more hillly the fairway, the "longer" the hole. I disagree with this...

Do you guys know which one it is?

**clubchamp** · August 24, 2009

The only way the yardage would play differently than what you get from measuring is if there is an elevation change.

Par 3 155yds straight down hill will play less

Par 3 155yds straight up the hill will play longer

Par 3 155yds and the hole is level with you but theres a valley between you and the hole is plays 155yds no matter how you measure it.

If you are standing in a fairway and the hole is level with you but there a bunch hills between you and the hole it plays that yardage.

**JKilgore44** · August 24, 2009

I think I understand what you're saying..

If you're standing on a par 3 that's listed at 180 yds and it's 60 yds downhill, then it will not play the 180 yds listed. It will play considerably shorter.

Don't make it harder than it has to be with all of the equations and stuff. Using your ranger finder will give you a straight line distance to the pin unless, as Iacas stated, it has a slope adjustment.

**beisenhauer** · August 24, 2009

What would be the point of posting the distance from the tee box, down into a ravine, and back up the other side to a green that's level with the tee?

As to whether posted distances take into account the difference in elevation between the green and wherever the distance is posted, I don't think it really matters. If, for example, a 150-yard post marks the "flat" distance to the center of a green that lies 45 feet below the fairway at that point (a pretty substantial drop), the "slope" distance would be 150 and 3/4 yards. If you're that worried about 27 inches more or less, I think Stevie is waiting for you on the first tee.

**David in FL** · August 24, 2009

I think I understand your question.

If the par 3 is across a ravine as an example and the straight line yardage is 180 yds, but it's 100 yds to the bottom of the ravine and 100 yds back up, you're asking what will the published distance be, 180 or 200 yds, right?

The answer is, the straight line yardage of 180 yds.

**billm408** · August 24, 2009

Straight line measurement. Contour changes on the walking surface are not calculated into the distance.

Does that answer the question?

**Zeph** · August 24, 2009

The straight line would always be the correct option here. Taking undulation into account obviously doesn't work. Measuring from the air with a satellite or something like that does work as long as there are no significant elevation differences from tee to green. You need an elevation difference of 60 yards on a 200 yard hole for the straight line to be 210 yards, ie. 10 yards longer.

Here is an explanation of distance on different elevations: http://probablegolfinstruction.com/e..._selection.htm

With a green elevated ~15 yards higher or lower, you can generally take one club more or less. If the green is 40 yards higher than the tee and is measured in a straight line to 165 yards, the distance with 0 elevation would be 160 yards. Such a difference is yards does not matter much, but an elevation change of 40 yards is very much and can effectively add 40 yards to the shot, which mean 2-3 clubs more. It will depend on your shot trajectory and how you measure your distances, but with irons, the ball normally comes to rest within a few yards of where it landed on a flat slope. Greens are softer than the fairway, so the ball will stop more promptly, so your carry distance is the distance to the pin. The longer the club, the more the ball will roll out, except if you got a lot of spin, so you can plan to land shorter on the green on an approach shot with the longer irons.

**jonnythan** · August 24, 2009

The difference is just about negligible. A 150-yard par 3 with a green 60 feet below the tee box will have a line-of-sight distance of 151.3 yards. A 400-yard par 4 with the same elevation change will be 400.5 yards line-of-sight.

BTW, a 200-yard hole (measured "flat) with a 50-yard elevation difference will have a LOS length of 206.1 yards, not 210. Probably play much more like a 210 though. And that's a heck of an elevation differnce!

I'd think that the different angle of bounce thanks to the slope of the fairway will have a much, much larger impact.

**RemyM** · August 24, 2009

From the USGA Handicap Manual

12-2. Measuring
a. How To Measure
Each hole must be measured horizontally (air line) by an electronic measuring device (EMD), surveying instruments, or a global positioning system (GPS) from the permanent yardage marker for every teeing area on the golf course to the center of the green. Any trained individual may perform course measurement, subject to review by the authorized golf association that issues the USGA Course Rating to the golf club. Yardages on the scorecard should accurately reflect this measurement. Accurate hole measurements to the nearest yard are very important.
A hole with a dogleg must be measured on a straight line from the tee to the center of the fairway at the bend. If the pivot point is not easily discernible, select a pivot point that is approximately 250 (men) or 210 (women) yards from the set of tees played by the majority of golfers. The measurement must continue from that point on a straight line to the center of the green or to the next pivot point if applicable.

**out_in_30** · August 24, 2009

as has been said multiple times before this, yardage is the raw number; it disregards wind, elevation, slope or any of that. all of those variables are calculated by the golfer, being able to adjust and take into consideration all of them actually will help make better shots.

**verse214** · August 25, 2009

From the USGA Handicap Manual

THANK YOU!

This is exactly what I needed -- I agree with all of you and see NO SENSE whatsoever in taking undulations into consideration. The guy who was arguing about measuring the literal ground distance with hills,etc. always talks so much cr*p about golf and expects me to believe it just because he's twice my age and older than a dinosaur.

**Zeph** · August 25, 2009

THANK YOU!

Still, take note of what Erik wrote. You can't know for sure how different courses measure up their distances, so you may encounter ones that are off by some yards. Generally I think most courses are well measured up.

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