Baddeley Wins at Riviera

reb68 · February 20, 2011

Badds won today and looked like he is gonna be a force in his thirties. I wanted to come ruffle some feathers in the S&T; crew which appears to overrun swing theory here.

I don't know who is now teaching him now but it cant be Bennett and Plummer. His arms arent stuck behind his body in the takeway (too deep). He is now much wider (arms in front from DTL). This is the part of S&T; that I have always questioned. With him back to swinging like he did 4-5 years ago, I believe he will win A LOT. He is one of the best putters on tour and his full swing looks as good as Elk in his prime.

FYI, I think elements of stack and tilt are good. Just not the arm depth which is encouraged and the reverse pivot move going back. I always resented the fact that they ndoctored photos to make their theory have creedence. Hogan did not do this, and no good player ever has.

Frank D Kim · February 20, 2011

I thought someone would post something about this by now, but....

I know Aaron got lot of flack when he denounced S&T; and his performance also suffered quite a bit.

Since he was not performing very well, it was hard to catch him on TV. However, he got great TV coverage during this week. What do the S&T; proponents think about his current swing. To my untrained eyes, his swing still looks like how he swung with S&T....maybe; little more weight transfer than with S&T.; His swing plane still looks relatively flat and on plane. In today's final round, I think it was Jim Nantz, who said Aaron was trying to swing bit more up with his driver with his current swing because he was swing downward with S&T.;

I would like to hear what some of the S&T; instructors here on this board has to say about his current swing in comparison to his old S&T; swing. It would be awesome if someone can upload his swing too.

Frank

**kennay92** · February 20, 2011

Originally Posted by reb68

Badds won today and looked like he is gonna be a force in his thirties. I wanted to come ruffle some feathers in the S&T; crew which appears to overrun swing theory here.

I don't know who is now teaching him now but it cant be Bennett and Plummer. His arms arent stuck behind his body in the takeway (too deep). He is now much wider (arms in front from DTL). This is the part of S&T; that I have always questioned. With him back to swinging like he did 4-5 years ago, I believe he will win A LOT. He is one of the best putters on tour and his full swing looks as good as Elk in his prime.

FYI, I think elements of stack and tilt are good. Just not the arm depth which is encouraged and the reverse pivot move going back. I always resented the fact that they ndoctored photos to make their theory have creedence. Hogan did not do this, and no good player ever has.

Oh man, you just opened a can of somethin else on this forum haha. Be ready to reply and back up your thoughts.... Oh and thanks for the help in my swing thread by the way.

**jamo** · February 20, 2011

I don't really see Baddeley being much of a "force" as the OP does. He might win every now and then, but I think he'll be hard pressed to make many President's Cup team, I doubt he'll win a major, and I don't think he will win more than 3 or 4 more times. His swing is good, for sure, but there is something about it that makes me question how well it will stand up over time. I can't really put my finger on it now, but I haven't seen his swing in slow motion so...

**Harmonious** · February 20, 2011

I'll let others dissect his swing, frame by frame, pointing out where he still exhibits 96.3% of Stack & Tilt, or 84.7%, or whatever. What matters most, IMO, are two things:

First, he is an excellent putter. One of the best, if not the best. Just a great putting routine, no muss, no fuss. See the line, hit the ball.

Second, regardless of whatever swing he currently has, he knows how to win. He's been doing it since he was a teenager. Today, he seemed fully at ease through the entire round. Couldn't say that about anyone else. Even Couples' seemed out of sorts (could have been his back bothering him, who knows). But I could definitely see Baddeley winning a major. I hope he does.

**david_wedzik** · February 20, 2011

Badds won today and looked like he is gonna be a force in his thirties. I wanted to come ruffle some feathers in the S&T; crew which appears to overrun swing theory here.

I don't know who is now teaching him now but it cant be Bennett and Plummer. His arms arent stuck behind his body in the takeway (too deep). He is now much wider (arms in front from DTL). This is the part of S&T; that I have always questioned. With him back to swinging like he did 4-5 years ago, I believe he will win A LOT. He is one of the best putters on tour and his full swing looks as good as Elk in his prime.

FYI, I think elements of stack and tilt are good. Just not the arm depth which is encouraged and the reverse pivot move going back. I always resented the fact that they ndoctored photos to make their theory have creedence. Hogan did not do this, and no good player ever has.

Three quick points: 1. Hogan ABSOLUTELY swung his hands and arms on the correct inward circle. Don't take my word for it - look at DTL photos. 2. Badds playing poorly since he left SnT doesn't say anything GOOD to the pattern and him winning today doesn't say anything BAD about the pattern. Also his career was in ABSOLUTE free fall mode and he proceeded to win again TWICE with Mike and Andy. He is a great talent and was sure to win again no matter who teaches him. IMO his overall mechanics are not as good since leaving M and A but they are good ENOUGH. 3. SnT is not even close to a reverse pivot. By calling it that you lose ALL credibility.

***iacas*** · February 20, 2011

Originally Posted by reb68

His arms arent stuck behind his body in the takeway (too deep). He is now much wider (arms in front from DTL). This is the part of S&T; that I have always questioned.

Just not the arm depth which is encouraged and the reverse pivot move going back. I always resented the fact that they ndoctored photos to make their theory have creedence. Hogan did not do this, and no good player ever has.

I didn't particularly care for the "overdone" photos either, but:

It's not a reverse pivot. Not even close, and calling it that doesn't do good things for your credibility.
It's a one-plane swing. Depth creates power and speed.

It's a fallacy that your hands are "more in front of you" or something when you lift them up in your swing. Your left arm (fourth accumulator) still loads across your chest, and often when people lift, their right elbow overflexes and their left arm will even bend. Then they'll have to "drop their hands into the slot," an inefficient move that can be tough to time.

I might film a video on this, but "width" is "depth." If I am set up at address and wanted to take my hands as far away from their address position AND the golf ball, I'd have to take them back on the shaft plane. That's impractical because the right elbow folds, so the next farthest away we can get is the elbow plane, the "one-plane" position. That's your depth. To get the same distance with a two-plane swing you have to lift your arms off your chest, and again, many will over-flex the right elbow and left arm.

Originally Posted by Frank D Kim

I know Aaron got lot of flack when he denounced S&T; and his performance also suffered quite a bit.

I don't recall him "denouncing" anything. He left and went back to work with his own coach. If anyone "denounced" anything it was all the anti-S&T; folks, many of whom don't actually bother to study the swing before reaching their conclusions. It's a one-plane, centered pivot swing. Not exactly some weird, wacky thing.

Dave's responded as well, so between the two of us we've probably covered this. Congrats to Aaron. I was rooting for Freddie (not Na - too slow, despite the sad story) because it would have been fun to see Freddie win again. And it would have been nice to see a bit closer tournament. Final round was a bit of a snooze after the eighth hole or so. :-P

**sean_miller** · February 20, 2011

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I'll let others dissect his swing, frame by frame, pointing out where he still exhibits 96.3% of Stack & Tilt, or 84.7%, or whatever. What matters most, IMO, are two things:

First, he is an excellent putter. One of the best, if not the best. Just a great putting routine, no muss, no fuss. See the line, hit the ball.

Second, regardless of whatever swing he currently has, he knows how to win. He's been doing it since he was a teenager. Today, he seemed fully at ease through the entire round. Couldn't say that about anyone else. Even Couples' seemed out of sorts (could have been his back bothering him, who knows). But I could definitely see Baddeley winning a major. I hope he does.

If Kevin Na had Baddeley's putting stroke he'd have won today. Baddeley made some nice recoveries and he was the best putter out there today, simple as that.

reb68 · February 21, 2011

Erik, What is your definition of pivot? My definition of reverse pivot is when the upper body is tilting towards the target at the top. What pitcher or quarterback throws by loading his front foot and then reversing course. I am glad that I have no credibility, I guess that puts me with David Leadbetter, Jim Maclean, All three living Harmon Brothers, (one of which I was fortunate enough to observe teach for six months), Nick Faldo, etc.

***iacas*** · February 21, 2011

This is the last post (especially tonight) in which I'm going to correct basic misunderstandings. It's late, and you should look some of this stuff up. I like debate - I'm constantly challenging myself and the geometry and physics and patterns and feelings. But please, don't waste my time or yours with the simplest of misconceptions.

Originally Posted by reb68

Erik, What is your definition of pivot? My definition of reverse pivot is when the upper body is tilting towards the target at the top.

Your upper body doesn't tilt towards the target at the top of an S&T; backswing. It's a centered pivot.
A reverse pivot is the weight moving left during the backswing and moving right on the downswing. S&T; is primarily about feeling that the weight stays centered on the backswing and then moves left on the downswing.

Originally Posted by reb68

What pitcher or quarterback throws by loading his front foot and then reversing course.

When you can tell me what throwing a ball above your shoulder has to do with hitting a ball on the ground with a stick, you'll be on to something.

And there's no "reversing course." Weight stays centered, then goes forward. You're 100% dead wrong if you think there's a "reversing course" or anything having to do with a reverse pivot.

Originally Posted by reb68

I am glad that I have no credibility, I guess that puts me with David Leadbetter, Jim Maclean, All three living Harmon Brothers, (one of which I was fortunate enough to observe teach for six months), Nick Faldo, etc.

Nick Faldo doesn't even seem to know the ball flight laws. Great player, hasn't proven a darn thing as an instructor. I have pictures of Butch Harmon preaching one thing and yet making a centered shoulder turn. Leadbetter doesn't have a flattering nickname on Tour and, to my knowledge, doesn't really work with anyone currently.

And what's Tiger Woods working on? Tilting left so he can have steeper shoulders and a more centered pivot, and taking his hands in so that they stay on plane and don't have to try to find it mid-downswing.

And again, Hogan taught a centered shoulder turn. Look at pages 73 and 74 of Five Lessons .

reb68 · February 21, 2011

Erik, now we are closer in thought. You are right in that my knowledge of bennett and plummer is limited to GD. The overdone photos are what made me never pursue more knowledge from them. This may have done me a disservice in a way. Certain players need to feel like those pictures look. I am going to start a new thread regarding Stack and Tilt, the golf machine, Foley, and Hardy's One Plane Two Plane theories. I hope to hear your thoughts in that thread.

**westcyderydin** · February 21, 2011

A reverse pivot would be when the weight is either forward, or centered i guess in the back swing and then moves to the back foot in the downswing....That is way different than weight forward and stays forward... or moves forward.

And to compare a golf swing to a pitcher or hitter doesnt really work. Sure there are things you could point to as being similar i guess but they dont translate. When i played baseball my coaches didnt want me to golf because they thought would screw up my baseball swing. They are just totally different things.

And i see what you are doing. I would look past the name and marketing and check out the swing itself...has some good stuff.

And another thing pertaining to the weight staying forward. I bet if you watch a lot of pros who arent S and T, their weight will be farther forward than you think. I bet that a lot of amatuers have problems from exaggerating the move into the back foot...or not getting back to the position where the pros are at impact.

***iacas*** · February 21, 2011

Originally Posted by reb68

I hope to hear your thoughts in that thread.

Please don't. We have plenty of threads on these topics. Find them and comment in them if you must, but truthfully, go buy the book and read it first. It's $16 or so. Read up first. We'll still be here.

reb68 · February 21, 2011

Do bennett and plummer not actually advocate those overdone positions? What dissention from Bennett/Plummer does Foley teach?

***iacas*** · February 21, 2011

Originally Posted by reb68

Do bennett and plummer not actually advocate those overdone positions? What dissention from Bennett/Plummer does Foley teach?

Do some research, bud.

**Zeph** · February 21, 2011

Originally Posted by reb68

FYI, I think elements of stack and tilt are good. Just not the arm depth which is encouraged and the reverse pivot move going back. I always resented the fact that they ndoctored photos to make their theory have creedence. Hogan did not do this, and no good player ever has.

You're right, Hogan didn't do this.

Wait...what?

Comments from Baddeley on what he thought was the biggest changes from S&T;:

Spine angle at address, weight moving to the right side
Allowing and trusting that the club will drop to the inside
Not feel like I have to go to the left (Aaron bends to his left), get the spine angle away from the target to hit the draw

http://www.pgatour.com/video/r/highlights/interviews/2011/02/20/qt_11nto_rnd4_baddeley_entire_prs.pgatour/index.html

**Malvern** · February 21, 2011

I don't want a dissertation on S & T, but, Go Badds, Yes he can putt but he looked well in control today, back through and free wheeling like he did before he discovered the experts. Seems like he lives a good gig over there wihout trying too hard.

**TourSpoon** · February 21, 2011

I am revamping my putting routine so I can be Badds.

Can he win a major? Well if he can win at Riviera he has a chance, but like others have said, his putting was superb this week. I was hoping that he could show Na something. You know I was rooting for Freddie all the way as he was bombing it out there at 51 years old.

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Baddeley Wins at Riviera

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