Bunker Rake question

There is no penalty when the ball moves after taking away a movable obstruction. The ball must be replaced on its original spot. See Rule 24-1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johanna 

There is no penalty when the ball moves after taking away a movable obstruction. The ball must be replaced on its original spot. See Rule 24-1.

I am curious what the rule would be if the ball was on a steep slope that you could not have the ball stay on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad max 

I am curious what the rule would be if the ball was on a steep slope that you could not have the ball stay on.

Rule 20-3d. You replace it without penalty. If it does not stay again, you place it at the nearest spot, not nearer the hole nor in a hazard, where it will stay.

I agree with Zeg's answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

 

Rule 20-3d. You replace it without penalty. If it does not stay again, you place it at the nearest spot, not nearer the hole nor in a hazard, where it will stay.

And remember not to brush sand off the ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty 

And remember not to brush sand off the ball.

The ball may be cleaned when lifted under Rule 24-1

What if the ball is against the rake in the bunker and moves after you lift the rake?  Replace nearest spot possible still within the bunker?

I almost had this today, but the ball did not move when I lifted the rake...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg 

 

Rule 20-3d. You replace it without penalty. If it does not stay again, you place it at the nearest spot, not nearer the hole nor in a hazard, where it will stay.

Thanks Zeg.  I know I am being annoying but but if the same thing happens in a hazard I asume that you would place the ball in the hazard no closer to the hole?  Some courses in my area leave the rake in the bunker. Would you still be able to clean the ball?  Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad max 

Thanks Zeg.  I know I am being annoying but but if the same thing happens in a hazard I asume that you would place the ball in the hazard no closer to the hole?  Some courses in my area leave the rake in the bunker. Would you still be able to clean the ball?  Thanks.

Guys are more than happy to answer rules questions.........that's what this is for.

If the ball moves while moving a movable obstruction, you replace the ball, no penalty.  Makes no difference if the ball is in a hazard, green, or through the green.  If the ball when placed, will not stay in it's position, then you follow 20-3d which zeg mentioned.  If you are in a hazard the ball must be placed in the hazard so your assumption is correct.

As far as cleaning your ball, yes you may clean it.  There are only 3 rules which allow you to lift your ball and not clean it.

5-3               Ball unfit for Play.....when you lift your ball to see if it is unfit for play.

12-2             Lifting a ball for identification.....when you have to lift a ball to identify it.

22-1, 22-2     Lifting a ball that is either assisting or interfering play of another ball.

20-3d

d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i) except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

(ii) in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

How about if it cannot come to rest without being nearer to the hole in a bunker? 

It would seem pretty easy if the rake is sitting up towards the top and the ball gets stuck there and it will just roll down the hill closer to the pin when replaced. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferey13 

How about if it cannot come to rest without being nearer to the hole in a bunker? 

 

It would seem pretty easy if the rake is sitting up towards the top and the ball gets stuck there and it will just roll down the hill closer to the pin when replaced. 

20-3d/2

Ball in Bunker Moves Closer to Hole When Obstruction Removed and Ball Will Not Remain at Rest When Replaced; All Other Parts of Bunker Are Nearer Hole

Q.A ball came to rest against a movable obstruction, a rake, in a bunker. When the rake was moved the ball rolled nearer the hole. According to Rule 24-1, the ball had to be replaced. Due to the slope and the fact that the sand was firm, the ball, when replaced, rolled closer to the hole.

Under Rule 20-3d, if a ball will not come to rest on the spot where it originally lay, it must be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it can be placed at rest. The spot where the ball originally lay was farther from the hole than any other part of the bunker. Thus, there was nowhere to place the ball at rest in the bunker that was not nearer the hole. What is the proper procedure if:

1. The only way the ball would remain at rest at the spot where it lay would be to press it lightly into the sand?

2. The sand is so hard that it is impossible to replace the ball?

A.There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest. Accordingly, in either case, since the player could not place the ball in conformity with the Rules, he should proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 28a) or, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball, under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

The same principle would apply if a player is proceeding under any Rule and the ball will not come to rest in the bunker at a spot not nearer to the hole than the appropriate reference point.

I agree with all Rulesman says. The problems with rakes in bunkers has led the Ruling Bodies to advise that rakes be kept outside bunkers, but greenkeepers don't like that because they have to get off their grass mowers to remove the rakes when mowing.

Note that during very important tournaments like the Masters, The Open etc. a greenkeeper follows each match with a rake in his hand, so you'll see no rakes at all in- or outside bunkers during these events!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman 

 

 

20-3d/2

Ball in Bunker Moves Closer to Hole When Obstruction Removed and Ball Will Not Remain at Rest When Replaced; All Other Parts of Bunker Are Nearer Hole

Q.A ball came to rest against a movable obstruction, a rake, in a bunker. When the rake was moved the ball rolled nearer the hole. According to Rule 24-1, the ball had to be replaced. Due to the slope and the fact that the sand was firm, the ball, when replaced, rolled closer to the hole.

Under Rule 20-3d, if a ball will not come to rest on the spot where it originally lay, it must be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it can be placed at rest. The spot where the ball originally lay was farther from the hole than any other part of the bunker. Thus, there was nowhere to place the ball at rest in the bunker that was not nearer the hole. What is the proper procedure if:

1. The only way the ball would remain at rest at the spot where it lay would be to press it lightly into the sand?

2. The sand is so hard that it is impossible to replace the ball?

A.There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest. Accordingly, in either case, since the player could not place the ball in conformity with the Rules, he should proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 28a) or, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball, under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

The same principle would apply if a player is proceeding under any Rule and the ball will not come to rest in the bunker at a spot not nearer to the hole than the appropriate reference point.

That`s nuts!  It seems to me that if the rake was not there, the ball would roll down and ended up closer to the hole than it actually did virtually 100% of the time (unless making contact with the rake while landing prevented the ball from plugging).  Very unfair to subject a guy to penalty strokes because someone left a rake in a bad spot.

I think they should have an exception to the rule that either lets you press the ball down to get it to stay or play the ball where it rolls to, even if that is closer to the hole.  Imagine what a travesty it would be if a guy came to the 18th hole (or even earlier in the round) and lost a golf tournament because he had to take a penalty shot because his ball came to rest against a rake and there was nowhere to place it.  Not likely to happen on the PGA Tour, but could happen elsewhere.

FWIW, I didn`t realize that you could take yourself out of a hazard by taking an unplayable lie penalty.  I could envision a situation where you are plugged under the lip with no chance of advancing the ball where it might be better to keep that point between you and the hole and drop outside the bunker rather than trying to play it or dropping within the bunker (and likely having it partially plug)....good to know, thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree 

That`s nuts!  It seems to me that if the rake was not there, the ball would roll down and ended up closer to the hole than it actually did virtually 100% of the time (unless making contact with the rake while landing prevented the ball from plugging).  Very unfair to subject a guy to penalty strokes because someone left a rake in a bad spot.

 

I think they should have an exception to the rule that either lets you press the ball down to get it to stay or play the ball where it rolls to, even if that is closer to the hole.  Imagine what a travesty it would be if a guy came to the 18th hole (or even earlier in the round) and lost a golf tournament because he had to take a penalty shot because his ball came to rest against a rake and there was nowhere to place it.  Not likely to happen on the PGA Tour, but could happen elsewhere.

 

FWIW, I didn`t realize that you could take yourself out of a hazard by taking an unplayable lie penalty.  I could envision a situation where you are plugged under the lip with no chance of advancing the ball where it might be better to keep that point between you and the hole and drop outside the bunker rather than trying to play it or dropping within the bunker (and likely having it partially plug)....good to know, thanks

I think the same sort of issue arises in a flooded bunker, if there is nowhere in the bunker (not nearer the hole) to drop to avoid the casual water then you drop outside the bunker under penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree 

That`s nuts!  It seems to me that if the rake was not there, the ball would roll down and ended up closer to the hole than it actually did virtually 100% of the time (unless making contact with the rake while landing prevented the ball from plugging).  Very unfair to subject a guy to penalty strokes because someone left a rake in a bad spot.

 

That's exactly why the Ruling Bodies advise that rakes be placed outside bunkers:

From the Decision Book:

Miscellaneous 2

Q.Should rakes be placed in or outside bunkers?

A.There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes, but on balance it is felt there is less likelihood of an advantage or disadvantage to the player if rakes are placed outside bunkers.

It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball will be deflected out of the bunker.

However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave them at the side which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the bunker, resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have been the case. This is most prevalent at a course where the bunkers are small. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and the player must proceed under Rule 24-1, it may not be possible to replace the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the hole - see Decision 20-3d/2.

If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker the only way to position them is to throw them into the bunker and this causes damage to the surface. Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker it is either not used or the player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker resulting in unnecessary delay.

Therefore, after considering all these aspects, it is recommended that rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball.

Ultimately, it is a matter for the Committee to decide where it wishes rakes to be placed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman 

 

 

20-3d/2

Ball in Bunker Moves Closer to Hole When Obstruction Removed and Ball Will Not Remain at Rest When Replaced; All Other Parts of Bunker Are Nearer Hole

Q.A ball came to rest against a movable obstruction, a rake, in a bunker. When the rake was moved the ball rolled nearer the hole. According to Rule 24-1, the ball had to be replaced. Due to the slope and the fact that the sand was firm, the ball, when replaced, rolled closer to the hole.

Under Rule 20-3d, if a ball will not come to rest on the spot where it originally lay, it must be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it can be placed at rest. The spot where the ball originally lay was farther from the hole than any other part of the bunker. Thus, there was nowhere to place the ball at rest in the bunker that was not nearer the hole. What is the proper procedure if:

1. The only way the ball would remain at rest at the spot where it lay would be to press it lightly into the sand?

2. The sand is so hard that it is impossible to replace the ball?

A.There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest. Accordingly, in either case, since the player could not place the ball in conformity with the Rules, he should proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 28a) or, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball, under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

The same principle would apply if a player is proceeding under any Rule and the ball will not come to rest in the bunker at a spot not nearer to the hole than the appropriate reference point.

I am confused is this just a special case for when a ball is up against a rake because I thought you had to drop in the bunker if you were in the bunker.

This is from the USGA rule book:

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball orsubstitute a ball.

I guess it is covered by 

1-4. Points Not Covered By Rules

If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

If that is the case I would think MEfree has a point that the ball would most likely have ended up where it rolled to after placing it.