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Tim Tebow as a Starter.

post #1 of 55
Thread Starter 

If the Ryder Cup captains chose players the same way the Jets chose their starting QBs, Jim Furyk would never make a Ryder Cup team. In Golf, unlike Jets football, results mean more than style or technique. So Jim starts, Tim sits on the bench. 

post #2 of 55

There are a number of reasons Tim Tebow is sitting on the bench for the Jets.  His technique is flawed for an NFL QB and he likely will never be a great NFL QB.   He does bring a number of other attributes that make him a winner and an asset to a team as he showed in Denver. 

 

Unfortunately Tebow got caught in the middle of team politics, Johnson (owner) brought Tebow here to sell seats despite protests from Rex.  The team couldn't figure out how to implement the Wildcat with Tebow so they abandoned it and Rex was too concerned with the Mark Sanchez's delicate ego to use Tebow as the starter. 

 

To avoid significant second guessing and potential injury the Jets are content to leave Tebow on the bench for the final game and then try to trade him based on his accomplishments with the Bronco's.  2012 was a completely wasted year for the Jets, only positive was Cromartie stepped up when Revis went down and proved he's a shutdown CB. 

post #3 of 55
Thread Starter 

Tim may not be a great passing quaterback, but he will be a great QB one day, in the style of Joe Kapp. 

post #4 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Tim may not be a great passing quaterback, but he will be a great QB one day, in the style of Joe Kapp. 

 

it what offense, other than the "Wildcat," does Tebow stand a chance of succeeding in? the NFL has moved to passing league, and Tebow is not a great - or even good - passer. sure, he's got intangibles (i.e. leadership, positive influence in the locker room, etc.) but at the end of the day his physical skills don't match up with those currently held by "great" QBs.

 

Tebow will see the inside of a broadcast booth before coming anywhere near the Lombardi Trophy.

post #5 of 55
Thread Starter 

Sorry guys, but the age of the drop back passer is going away. Look at the spread option players coming up now....RGIII, Cam Newton. The old inside the box ideas are just not going to last in spite of what Peyton Manning is doing right now. The game is going to change. They all do at some point or another, be it baseball, golf or football. 

post #6 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Sorry guys, but the age of the drop back passer is going away. Look at the spread option players coming up now....RGIII, Cam Newton. The old inside the box ideas are just not going to last in spite of what Peyton Manning is doing right now. The game is going to change. They all do at some point or another, be it baseball, golf or football. 

 

and Drew Brees

and Aaron Rodgers

and Tom Brady

and Andrew Luck

and Andy Dalton

 

Cam and RGIII are the exceptions rather than the rule. they are special players with special skill sets, and both are vastly better than Tebow. in fact, if Tebow was destined to be a great QB, he'd be starting in NYJ instead of an awful Sanchez.

 

i agree: the game will change. but that's still not going to make Timothy any more valuable, or viable, as a QB.

post #7 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Sorry guys, but the age of the drop back passer is going away. Look at the spread option players coming up now....RGIII, Cam Newton.

Cam Newton set the NFL rookie passing record last year. Both he and RG3 can throw the ball.
post #8 of 55

Tebow is more a fullback than a QB, his throwing motion is too slow and awkward to be a good NFL QB.  He also doesn't have the speed that Cam or RG3 have which is what makes their passing ability even more dangerous. 

 

I like the guy but skills wise he's at best a #2 or #3 on any NFL team.   If the media didn't give him hype for his great attitude and public display of his religious beliefs he'd have left the NFL a relative unknown.       

post #9 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Tebow is more a fullback than a QB, his throwing motion is too slow and awkward to be a good NFL QB.  He also doesn't have the speed that Cam or RG3 have which is what makes their passing ability even more dangerous. 

 

I like the guy but skills wise he's at best a #2 or #3 on any NFL team.   If the media didn't give him hype for his great attitude and public display of his religious beliefs he'd have left the NFL a relative unknown.       

Actually it is the opposite, if it wasn't for all the media hype and his religious beliefs, he would be a starter right now for the Jags or somewhere. There are many worse QBs than him who are starting...Sanchez is one that comes to mind, but he is dating a TV star, who happens to be politically active and makes the news as well but that doesn't seem to bother the coaching staff of New York or the fact that he doesn't know how to protect the ball from the guys on the other side of the line of scrimmage. 

 

Also I am getting a bit tired of people insisting that Tebow can't be a passer. 

 

Lets take a look at a few things. 

 

 

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player
Comp.
Att.
Pct.
Yards
YPA
TD
INT
Rating*
Player A
851
1,354
62.85
11,201
8.27
90
33
100.93
Player B
825
1,232
66.96
8,772
7.12
76
37
95.60
Player C
841
1,383
60.81
10,286
7.44
84
36
93.15
Player D
493
797
61.86
6,625
8.31
52
21
99.04
Player E
564
986
57.20
7,731
7.84
51
33
85.72
Player F
661
985
67.11
9,286
9.43
88
15
120.72
 
* Using the NFL formula for passer rating, not the NCAA formula
 
The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!"
 
That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
  • Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
  • Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
  • Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.
 
Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.
 
Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
  • Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
  • Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
  • Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
  • Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
  • Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
  • And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and was  far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft and is not a starter because the NFL is full of idiot coaches, owners, and GMS. 

Edited by Derrick Parker - 12/30/12 at 6:42pm
post #10 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Actually it is the opposite, if it wasn't for all the media hype and his religious beliefs, he would be a starter right now for the Jags or somewhere. There are many worse QBs than him who are starting...Sanchez is one that comes to mind, but he is dating a TV star, who happens to be politically active and makes the news as well but that doesn't seem to bother the coaching staff of New York or the fact that he doesn't know how to protect the ball from the guys on the other side of the line of scrimmage. 

 

Also I am getting a bit tired of people insisting that Tebow can't be a passer. 

 

Lets take a look at a few things. 

 

 

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player
Comp.
Att.
Pct.
Yards
YPA
TD
INT
Rating*
Player A
851
1,354
62.85
11,201
8.27
90
33
100.93
Player B
825
1,232
66.96
8,772
7.12
76
37
95.60
Player C
841
1,383
60.81
10,286
7.44
84
36
93.15
Player D
493
797
61.86
6,625
8.31
52
21
99.04
Player E
564
986
57.20
7,731
7.84
51
33
85.72
Player F
661
985
67.11
9,286
9.43
88
15
120.72
 
* Using the NFL formula for passer rating, not the NCAA formula
 
The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!"
 
That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
  • Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
  • Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
  • Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.
 
Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.
 
Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
  • Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
  • Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
  • Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
  • Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
  • Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
  • And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and was  far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft and is not a starter because the NFL is full of idiot coaches, owners, and GMS. 
i think we're all aware of Tebow's success in college. and i think we are aware that NCAA <> NFL.
 
by using the logic above in bold:
 
- John Elway is an idiot for not re-signing Tebow. instead, he traded Tebow, acquired Manning and is now the #1 seed in the AFC (HFA for the playoffs and 1st round bye)
- Rex Ryan is an idiot for not starting Tebow over Sanchez (who we all agree is a below-average QB). with Tebow's [alleged] superior skill set, in game action this year he's produced 141 yards from scrimmage, with no TDs.
- 30 other coaches, including those who are currently going to the post-season, are also idiots because they decided not to trade for Tebow in the offseason and roll with the QBs already on the roster.
 
also, to suggest Sanchez is the starter in NYJ because "...he is dating a TV star, who happens to be politically active and makes the news..." is specious, at best. and as to his competency as a passer: in 2011 he started eleven games. in those games he averaged 151 yards passing, and just over 1 TD/game. of those eleven games, he surpassed 200 yards once twice, with a high of 236.
 
for all his redeeming qualities on and off the field, his presence in the locker room, and his success in college, this is the reason he's not a starter, and likely won't be.
 
**edited for accuracy**
post #11 of 55
Thread Starter 

Sanchez isn't a starter because of Eva, his sports Delilah, he is just a distracted one who can't play well, regardless of his stats. My point is that Tebow would have been better period. Is Elway an idiot for signing Manning? No, he was an idiot for giving up on Tebow two games into Tebow's start. No way he was going to let him lead out of the tunnel the next year.  No, he was not an idiot for signing Manning but he was an idiot for letting Fox try to ruin Tebow with his lousy play calling for too many games last year. When Tebow used the option play and called audibles (Which happens to be Manning's strength as well) Tebow usually won the game, which may not have been what either one of them wanted because they just didn't like the guy, or his fans, at all.  

 

I suggest you take a look at this: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html

 

I think it sums up Tim Tebow's season with Denver and should give an idea of what he could have done with the Jets in a much more professional way than I, an often called Tebowmaniac can express it. 

 

Maybe idiot is too strong a word to use to describe the people that have misued Tebow this year and last, but I couldn't think of one to use instead. Ryan never intended to use Tebow, or maybe I should say, he intended to use him as little as possible, but what they really wanted was for Tebow to not play for a division rival either. Ryan never forgave Tebow for that loss and subsequent visit to the hospital last year. What better revenge than to promise a person a lot and give them nothing. 


Edited by Derrick Parker - 12/30/12 at 10:21pm
post #12 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Sanchez isn't a starter because of Eva, his sports Delilah, he is just a distracted one who can't play well, regardless of his stats. My point is that Tebow would have been better period. Is Elway an idiot for signing Manning? No, he was an idiot for giving up on Tebow two games into Tebow's start. No way he was going to let him lead out of the tunnel the next year.  No, he was not an idiot for signing Manning but he was an idiot for letting Fox try to ruin Tebow with his lousy play calling for too many games last year. When Tebow used the option play and called audibles (Which happens to be Manning's strength as well) Tebow usually won the game, which may not have been what either one of them wanted because they just didn't like the guy, or his fans, at all.  

 

I suggest you take a look at this: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html

 

I think it sums up Tim Tebow's season with Denver and should give an idea of what he could have done with the Jets in a much more professional way than I, an often called Tebowmaniac can express it. 

 

Maybe idiot is too strong a word to use to describe the people that have misued Tebow this year and last, but I couldn't think of one to use instead. Ryan never intended to use Tebow, or maybe I should say, he intended to use him as little as possible, but what they really wanted was for Tebow to not play for a division rival either. Ryan never forgave Tebow for that loss and subsequent visit to the hospital last year. What better revenge than to promise a person a lot and give them nothing. 

 

interesting use of statistics. while all the numbers may be valid, the assumptions and conclusions can be read different ways. for example, the article uses these numbers to bolster the argument:

 

Career interception percentage:
Tim Tebow -- 1.78 percent
Aaron Rodgers -- 1.83 percent
Tom Brady -- 2.2 percent
Drew Brees -- 2.71 percent
Peyton Manning -- 2.75 percent
John Elway -- 3.1 percent

 

in this example, the author asserts that Tebow's low Interception Percentage correlates directly to his success as a QB. on one hand that can be a valid assumption. conversely, i could assert that the leader in INTs in the NFL is a Super Bowl winner and [likely] first ballot HoF honoree.

 

anyway, it's clear you're a big time Tebow supporter - nothing i can say will change that. i wish him all the best in his career. i just don't think he has the physical tools to become a true QB1 in the NFL.

post #13 of 55
Thread Starter 

Well let's see where he is and how he does next season.

post #14 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

Actually it is the opposite, if it wasn't for all the media hype and his religious beliefs, he would be a starter right now for the Jags or somewhere. There are many worse QBs than him who are starting...Sanchez is one that comes to mind, but he is dating a TV star, who happens to be politically active and makes the news as well but that doesn't seem to bother the coaching staff of New York or the fact that he doesn't know how to protect the ball from the guys on the other side of the line of scrimmage. 

 

Also I am getting a bit tired of people insisting that Tebow can't be a passer. 

 

Lets take a look at a few things. 

 

 

Six Big-Name College Quarterbacks
Player
Comp.
Att.
Pct.
Yards
YPA
TD
INT
Rating*
Player A
851
1,354
62.85
11,201
8.27
90
33
100.93
Player B
825
1,232
66.96
8,772
7.12
76
37
95.60
Player C
841
1,383
60.81
10,286
7.44
84
36
93.15
Player D
493
797
61.86
6,625
8.31
52
21
99.04
Player E
564
986
57.20
7,731
7.84
51
33
85.72
Player F
661
985
67.11
9,286
9.43
88
15
120.72
 
* Using the NFL formula for passer rating, not the NCAA formula
 
The numbers aren't even close. One player dominates. One player leaps screaming off the list, like Horshack on "Welcome Back Kotter" when he knew the answer to a question: "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!"
 
That dominant individual, of course, is Player F. This quarterback:
  • Was the most accurate of any of these six passers.
  • Dominated the average per attempt category – our favorite number – by better than 1 yard per attempt over the No. 2 player on the list.
  • Boasts a passer rating so sky high it defies description, nearly 20 full points better than the No. 2 player on the list.
Elsewhere, Player F was No. 2 in total TD passes – but easily No. 1 in TD pass percentage. Player F threw a TD on 8.9 percent of his pass attempts – easily outpacing Player A, who threw a touchdown on 6.6 percent of his pass attempts.
 
Finally, Player F protected the ball much better than any of the other quarterbacks on this list. Player F threw an interception on just 1.52 percent of attempts – easily outpacing Player C, who threw an interception on 2.60 percent of attempts. And you know what we've always told you: quarterbacks who throw picks lose games. Quarterbacks who don't throw picks win games.
 
Dying to know who they are, arentcha? Well, the numbers represent the college career stats of six of the greatest quarterbacks in the modern history of the SEC. Here goes:
  • Player A is Peyton Manning. He played for Tennessee in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1998 draft.
  • Player B is Tim Couch. He played for Kentucky in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft.
  • Player C is Eli Manning. He played for Ole Miss in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2004 draft.
  • Player D is JaMarcus Russell. He played for LSU in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2007 draft.
  • Player E is Matt Stafford. He played for Georgia in the SEC and was the No. 1 overall pick in the 2009 draft.
  • And, finally, Player F is Tim Tebow. He played for Florida and the SEC and was  far from the No. 1 overall pick in the 2010 draft and is not a starter because the NFL is full of idiot coaches, owners, and GMS. 


There are also a whole bunch of QB's that have a ton more QB talent that Tebow has.   Take a look at the QB's going to the playoffs this year..    All 12 are better than Tebow.  Brady, Peyton and Rodgers are better on their worst day, than Tebow on his best day.  

 

There is no doubt Tebow is a good athlete and was a good SYSTEM QB in college.  Denver had success partly because of Tebow's intangibles but primarily because most pro defenses hadn't seen a team use that system in decades.  Had Denver stuck with that system, it is highly unlikely they would have won half the games they won this year because D-coordinators would have burned up the phone lines talking to college coordinators to refresh their memories of how to defend that system.   Most teams are not and will not commit to a similar system any time soon because most cannot afford to have their highest paid player go down with the inevitable injuries that come with having a run-first QB.    

 

Tebow's mechanics are horrible.   His footwork sucks and he has one of the slowest releases I remember seeing in the past 3 decades (every time he winds up, he is ripe for being stripped)  and his short passing game was horribly inaccurate.   I will give credit where it is due though, when he had protection, he was deadly accurate on longer throws.    

 

Finally, your list of QB's from the SEC....    There have been very few SEC QB's to have any signifcant success in the NFL in quite a while (the 2 Mannings, Newton, Stafford, Jay Cutler and since he made to a Super Bowl, one could weakly argue for Grossman).  In fact, if you include all SEC QB's who had any real success in the NFL, the list is still very small so your stats are skewed heavily by choosing to limit your list to a conference that relies heavily on strong defense and the running game.. 

post #15 of 55

Tebow isn't and won't ever be a good NFL QB.  He is an excellent teammate, role model and athlete.  Denver had to completely alter their offense to make him effective.  That offense put Tebow at huge injury risk, and isn't sustainable long term.   His success in Denver was due to his running ability not passing. 

 

In a pro offense the QB is the most important position and you can't have an offense that places your most critical asset in harms way on 50% of the plays.  Add to it that there aren't many QB's that could step into an offense developed for Tebow and run it should he be injured. 

 

Tebow will be a backup / wildcat QB some place but he won't ever produce numbers that put him in the Top 20 QB's (season) in any sort of passing statistics. 

post #16 of 55
Thread Starter 

So a guy who takes a mediocre team that starts at 1-4 to the championship of their division and wins his first playoff game against the Steelers is not a good QB? Okay fine, and Ryan is going to be a Hall of Famer Coach. I get it now.....I stand corrected. 

post #17 of 55

Every QB who has made a team in the NFL, whether starter or backup, can throw the ball well.  They are NFL Quarterbacks.  That is why they made it to the NFL.  If they couldn't throw, they would be selling shoes like Al Bundy.

 

What separates the best from the rest is being able to read the defense.  Brady, Manning, Rogers, Brees, read defense better than most other QBs.  They take what the D gives them and make quick decisions.  Ball is out quick and lots of running after the catch.  You may not like Brady or Manning because they are not your team's QB, but their success over the last decade is incredible.  Rogers will have the same success the way he is going.

 

Other great QBs, like Big Ben, also can create plays with their ability to escape and buy time allowing plays to develop.  Ben has won two SB with this ability.  He also is good at reading defenses. But the Steeler system tends to rely on longer passes with big gains.  These plays need more time and Ben has to buy that time.

 

Newton and RGIII are in the run to create time mold right now and can be very exciting.  But these type of QBs get hurt, a lot.  And no matter how fast they are, they are no use to a team on the sideline. 

 

The pocket passer who can read defense is here to stay.  Just look at the SB winners over the last decade.  Brady, Manning(s), Rogers, Big Ben, Brees, Warner, heck even Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.  All pocket passers.  Same with the 1990s, Aikman, Favre, Elway.  Running QBs are exciting.  Pocket QBs win Championships.

post #18 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

So a guy who takes a mediocre team that starts at 1-4 to the championship of their division

 

They finished 8-8 because they play in a weak division and lost 45-10 in the DIVISIONAL round of the playoffs.

 

Hardly a season for the record books.

 

Tebow stinks. He's as likely to be out of football in six years as he is to be a first choice starting QB for an NFL team.

 

P.S. Boogie, the Steelers OL is porous, so Ben has to scramble to save his life. It makes plays that take very little time (15-yard slant routes?) look like they've taken a long time because he's scrambling after 1.1 seconds in the "pocket." Actually, I take that back "pocket" is a misnomer in Pittsburgh. :) Has been for a few years now. Brady or Manning would get KILLED if they were QBs in Pittsburgh. Ben not only has to read defenses, he has to know which of his OL is going to wave at a pass rusher on this particular play. :) But yes, he's a "pocket passer" more than he is a running QB, by far. It's just that his pocket is the size of that little change pocket on a pair of boys jeans and it's constantly moving AND shrinking. :)

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