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Ball Played from Lateral Never Leaves (26-2)

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

I was watching the HSBC Championship last night and saw Rory McIlroy hit a big drive on a par 5 that he pushed right and through the fairway and into a big lateral water hazard.  His ball held up just prior to the pond but well within (10 feet maybe) the margin of the hazard.  He chose to play his next shot from that point, and chose to go for the green, which was all carry across the pond.  He didn't make it.  At that point, I realized I wasn't sure of his options so I had to go and look it up.  It looks like he has, generally, the same options as he normally would with one minor "difference."  He has to recall where his previous shot crossed into the hazard and use that point for proceeding under options 26-1b or 26-1c.  He can also choose to replay from the point his last shot PRIOR to entering the water hazard, if he so desired.

 

Further, there is one extra little caveat ... if he chooses 26-1a and then doesn't like the result of the drop, he can "change his mind" and use 26-1b or 26-1c so long as he adds one more stroke to his total.

 

Anyways, I think I got it all figured out, but thought I'd post it anyway just in case I screwed it all up.

 

Also, for the record, Rory chose 26-1b (via 26-2ia) and hit a 3-wood to about 12 feet, and then nearly making a par on the hole.

post #2 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I was watching the HSBC Championship last night and saw Rory McIlroy hit a big drive on a par 5 that he pushed right and through the fairway and into a big lateral water hazard.  His ball held up just prior to the pond but well within (10 feet maybe) the margin of the hazard.  He chose to play his next shot from that point, and chose to go for the green, which was all carry across the pond.  He didn't make it.  At that point, I realized I wasn't sure of his options so I had to go and look it up.  It looks like he has, generally, the same options as he normally would with one minor "difference."  He has to recall where his previous shot crossed into the hazard and use that point for proceeding under options 26-1b or 26-1c.  He can also choose to replay from the point his last shot PRIOR to entering the water hazard, if he so desired.

 

Further, there is one extra little caveat ... if he chooses 26-1a and then doesn't like the result of the drop, he can "change his mind" and use 26-1b or 26-1c so long as he adds one more stroke to his total.

 

Anyways, I think I got it all figured out, but thought I'd post it anyway just in case I screwed it all up.

 

Also, for the record, Rory chose 26-1b (via 26-2ia) and hit a 3-wood to about 12 feet, and then nearly making a par on the hole.

 

I would add that after the drop in the hazard, the player may also use 26-1a, return to the previous spot outside the hazard, and play adding the additional 1 PS.  This is called regression.

 

This decision gives a good example of how to apply R26-2   http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26-2/1

post #3 of 16

BTW, congratulations for correctly digesting the rule.  The last rules workshop I went to, the instructor joked that getting a 100 on the exam meant, among other things,  having to figure out the correct answer for the obligatory question on Rule 26-2.  Figuring out all the strokes and penalties can be tricky.

 

The following is more information if anyone is interested.

 

If you look at 26-2b, if the player played the ball from the hazard and the ball went OB, the player may drop a ball at the spot last played in the hazard.  He gets one penalty stroke under Rule 27-1 whether he actually drops there or not.  If he does drop he can then play the stroke or, under a penalty of another stroke, play from outside the hazard under R26.  Whether or not he actually drops a ball at the spot in the hazard is up to him, as well as to whether or not he actually plays it.  If he plays from outside the hazard it's 2 total penalty strokes regardless.

 

The difference between the two rules is that with R26-2a, Rory's case, he was not required to drop a ball in the same spot under Rule 26, it was only 1of 4 possible choices. He could have just dropped outside the hazard incurring 1 penalty stroke.   If he decides to drop where he last played in the hazard, and it turned out to be a bad choice, he's stuck with a penalty for the drop plus another for the ability to drop outside the hazard. 2 penalty strokes total.  With R26-2b, if he would have hit a ball OB, he has to take the stroke and distance penalty under R27.   If he then chooses to drop outside the hazard, regardless if he dropped the ball inside the hazard or not, he has to add another penalty stroke.

 

What does all this mean.......if you play a ball from the hazard and you don't get out.  Understand that you can take your lumps and just drop outside the hazard with 1 penalty stroke.  If you take a chance and drop it in the hazard (maybe because a  drop outside the hazard is much farther away form the green), and it turns out to be a bad lie, oops.  It's another penalty stroke for a total of 2 PS to then drop outside of the hazard.

 

If on the other hand you play a stroke from the hazard and it goes OB,  there is no risk for dropping it in the hazard to see what kind of lie you get.  Playing from outside the hazard is 2 PS, no matter if you first dropped it in the hazard or not.

 

 

I hope this makes sense.  :~(

post #4 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

BTW, congratulations for correctly digesting the rule.  The last rules workshop I went to, the instructor joked that getting a 100 on the exam meant, among other things,  having to figure out the correct answer for the obligatory question on Rule 26-2.  Figuring out all the strokes and penalties can be tricky.

 

The following is more information if anyone is interested.

 

If you look at 26-2b, if the player played the ball from the hazard and the ball went OB, the player may drop a ball at the spot last played in the hazard.  He gets one penalty stroke under Rule 27-1 whether he actually drops there or not.  If he does drop he can then play the stroke or, under a penalty of another stroke, play from outside the hazard under R26.  Whether or not he actually drops a ball at the spot in the hazard is up to him, as well as to whether or not he actually plays it.  If he plays from outside the hazard it's 2 total penalty strokes regardless.

 

The difference between the two rules is that with R26-2a, Rory's case, he was not required to drop a ball in the same spot under Rule 26, it was only 1of 4 possible choices. He could have just dropped outside the hazard incurring 1 penalty stroke.   If he decides to drop where he last played in the hazard, and it turned out to be a bad choice, he's stuck with a penalty for the drop plus another for the ability to drop outside the hazard. 2 penalty strokes total.  With R26-2b, if he would have hit a ball OB, he has to take the stroke and distance penalty under R27.   If he then chooses to drop outside the hazard, regardless if he dropped the ball inside the hazard or not, he has to add another penalty stroke.

 

What does all this mean.......if you play a ball from the hazard and you don't get out.  Understand that you can take your lumps and just drop outside the hazard with 1 penalty stroke.  If you take a chance and drop it in the hazard (maybe because a  drop outside the hazard is much farther away form the green), and it turns out to be a bad lie, oops.  It's another penalty stroke for a total of 2 PS to then drop outside of the hazard.

 

If on the other hand you play a stroke from the hazard and it goes OB,  there is no risk for dropping it in the hazard to see what kind of lie you get.  Playing from outside the hazard is 2 PS, no matter if you first dropped it in the hazard or not.

 

 

I hope this makes sense.  :~(

Thanks, John. I've yet to get the correct answer to that question ... maybe next time. ;-)

post #5 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

BTW, congratulations for correctly digesting the rule.  The last rules workshop I went to, the instructor joked that getting a 100 on the exam meant, among other things,  having to figure out the correct answer for the obligatory question on Rule 26-2.  Figuring out all the strokes and penalties can be tricky.

 

The following is more information if anyone is interested.

 

If you look at 26-2b, if the player played the ball from the hazard and the ball went OB, the player may drop a ball at the spot last played in the hazard.  He gets one penalty stroke under Rule 27-1 whether he actually drops there or not.  If he does drop he can then play the stroke or, under a penalty of another stroke, play from outside the hazard under R26.  Whether or not he actually drops a ball at the spot in the hazard is up to him, as well as to whether or not he actually plays it.  If he plays from outside the hazard it's 2 total penalty strokes regardless.

 

The difference between the two rules is that with R26-2a, Rory's case, he was not required to drop a ball in the same spot under Rule 26, it was only 1of 4 possible choices. He could have just dropped outside the hazard incurring 1 penalty stroke.   If he decides to drop where he last played in the hazard, and it turned out to be a bad choice, he's stuck with a penalty for the drop plus another for the ability to drop outside the hazard. 2 penalty strokes total.  With R26-2b, if he would have hit a ball OB, he has to take the stroke and distance penalty under R27.   If he then chooses to drop outside the hazard, regardless if he dropped the ball inside the hazard or not, he has to add another penalty stroke.

 

What does all this mean.......if you play a ball from the hazard and you don't get out.  Understand that you can take your lumps and just drop outside the hazard with 1 penalty stroke.  If you take a chance and drop it in the hazard (maybe because a  drop outside the hazard is much farther away form the green), and it turns out to be a bad lie, oops.  It's another penalty stroke for a total of 2 PS to then drop outside of the hazard.

 

If on the other hand you play a stroke from the hazard and it goes OB,  there is no risk for dropping it in the hazard to see what kind of lie you get.  Playing from outside the hazard is 2 PS, no matter if you first dropped it in the hazard or not.

 

 

I hope this makes sense.  :~(

 

I never completely understood the difference between your shot remaining in the hazard, and hitting it OB from the hazard before.  Thanks for a good clarification!

 

Still a pain in the butt.....another example of taking care not to follow a bad shot with a stupid one!  A rule that sadly, I still break all too often....

post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

BTW, congratulations for correctly digesting the rule.  The last rules workshop I went to, the instructor joked that getting a 100 on the exam meant, among other things,  having to figure out the correct answer for the obligatory question on Rule 26-2.  Figuring out all the strokes and penalties can be tricky.

 

The following is more information if anyone is interested.

 

If you look at 26-2b, if the player played the ball from the hazard and the ball went OB, the player may drop a ball at the spot last played in the hazard.  He gets one penalty stroke under Rule 27-1 whether he actually drops there or not.  If he does drop he can then play the stroke or, under a penalty of another stroke, play from outside the hazard under R26.  Whether or not he actually drops a ball at the spot in the hazard is up to him, as well as to whether or not he actually plays it.  If he plays from outside the hazard it's 2 total penalty strokes regardless.

 

The difference between the two rules is that with R26-2a, Rory's case, he was not required to drop a ball in the same spot under Rule 26, it was only 1of 4 possible choices. He could have just dropped outside the hazard incurring 1 penalty stroke.   If he decides to drop where he last played in the hazard, and it turned out to be a bad choice, he's stuck with a penalty for the drop plus another for the ability to drop outside the hazard. 2 penalty strokes total.  With R26-2b, if he would have hit a ball OB, he has to take the stroke and distance penalty under R27.   If he then chooses to drop outside the hazard, regardless if he dropped the ball inside the hazard or not, he has to add another penalty stroke.

 

What does all this mean.......if you play a ball from the hazard and you don't get out.  Understand that you can take your lumps and just drop outside the hazard with 1 penalty stroke.  If you take a chance and drop it in the hazard (maybe because a  drop outside the hazard is much farther away form the green), and it turns out to be a bad lie, oops.  It's another penalty stroke for a total of 2 PS to then drop outside of the hazard.

 

If on the other hand you play a stroke from the hazard and it goes OB,  there is no risk for dropping it in the hazard to see what kind of lie you get.  Playing from outside the hazard is 2 PS, no matter if you first dropped it in the hazard or not.

 

 

I hope this makes sense.  :~(

Thanks!  And that is an interesting little tidbit about the "free" drop for the OB ball.  I really hope I never need to remember these rules while playing.  It means I have probably just done something really dumb! ;)

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Thanks!  And that is an interesting little tidbit about the "free" drop for the OB ball.  I really hope I never need to remember these rules while playing.  It means I have probably just done something really dumb! ;)

 

Let's say the player plays from the hazard and the ball goes OB.  He elects to drop in the hazard.  Before he plays his stroke he kicks his ball.  He then changes his mind, and instead of replacing the ball, he picks up and drops it outside of the hazard.  1PS for the OB, 1PS for dropping outside of the hazard.  Does he get 1PS for kicking his ball?

 

I believe so, but would appreciate any input.

post #8 of 16

I would say so. His ball was in play when he dropped it.

post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

I would say so. His ball was in play when he dropped it.

 

Absolutely. The player had no intention to lift his ball prior to kicking it so he moved his ball in play (18-2a).

post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

I would say so. His ball was in play when he dropped it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

Absolutely. The player had no intention to lift his ball prior to kicking it so he moved his ball in play (18-2a).

 

Thanks.  That's what I was thinking, the ball is in play.

 

As far as intent I was originally thinking that as well but I'm wondering if it could be argued that under this rule the player can drop a ball without intent.  He wanted to see what the lie would be before deciding whether or not to play it. There really is no downside to dropping the ball......I guess as long as you don't kick it.  :-)

 

Thanks again.

post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

 

 

 

Thanks.  That's what I was thinking, the ball is in play.

 

As far as intent I was originally thinking that as well but I'm wondering if it could be argued that under this rule the player can drop a ball without intent.  He wanted to see what the lie would be before deciding whether or not to play it. There really is no downside to dropping the ball......I guess as long as you don't kick it.  :-)

 

 

 

When the player dropped his ball the ball was in play. His intention was to drop it, that means he intended to put the ball in play.

post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

When the player dropped his ball the ball was in play. His intention was to drop it, that means he intended to put the ball in play.

 

I understand....I could have worded that better.  I was commenting on your previous post regarding the player having no intention to lift the ball.  The player could  breach 18-2 (move the ball) prior to determining his intent whether to lift or play it.   The player intended to drop the ball (as you say).  This was to see what kind of lie he got, .....the consequences of which is the ball is in play.

 

I think we are all getting to the same outcome.

post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

I understand....I could have worded that better.  I was commenting on your previous post regarding the player having no intention to lift the ball.  The player could  breach 18-2 (move the ball) prior to determining his intent whether to lift or play it.   The player intended to drop the ball (as you say).  This was to see what kind of lie he got, .....the consequences of which is the ball is in play.

I think we are all getting to the same outcome.
Ok, so if it's in play when you drop it, at what point does it become out of play. What if the guy kicked it while he was bending down to pick it up and redrop outside the hazard?
post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post


Ok, so if it's in play when you drop it, at what point does it become out of play. What if the guy kicked it while he was bending down to pick it up and redrop outside the hazard?

It is no different to kicking it when bending down to pick it up to drop in taking relief from an immovable obstruction or casual water.

20-1 applies.

post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post


Ok, so if it's in play when you drop it, at what point does it become out of play. What if the guy kicked it while he was bending down to pick it up and redrop outside the hazard?

 

The ball is in play until it is lifted......or it's hit OB again  :cry:

 

The rules use a term called "directly attributable" which deals with what you are asking.

 

20-1. Lifting and Marking

 

.......If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.

 

24-1. Movable Obstruction

 

A player may take relief, without penalty, from a movable obstruction as follows:

 

a. If the ball does not lie in or on the obstruction, the obstruction may be removed. If the ball moves, it must be replaced, and there is no penalty, provided that the movement of the ball is directly attributable to the removal of the obstruction. Otherwise, Rule 18-2a applies.

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post


Ok, so if it's in play when you drop it, at what point does it become out of play. What if the guy kicked it while he was bending down to pick it up and redrop outside the hazard?

It is no different to kicking it when bending down to pick it up to drop in taking relief from an immovable obstruction or casual water.

20-1 applies.

 

So, to paraphrase Elmer Fudd, "Be vewy, vewy caweful" when tromping around in a hazard.  :smartass:

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