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When are you Over Coached


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At what point does a swing flaw just become part of your swing? Ala Jim Furyk. Sometimes we get wrapped up in a picture of what a swing is supposed to look like. Or what is supposed to be the most consistent.

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I think as long as the ball goes where the golfer intends for it to go, it matters little how many (little) swing flaws a golfer might have. There are some pretty good golfers (score wise)  out there with some ugly swings.

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I think some pros have quirks in their for sure, but I'll bet they were pretty good golfers when they were young, so there was no need to change that. I don't think people should get wrapped up in how a swing looks more than how well it functions. Ugly and consistent swing beats good looking inconsistent swing any day of the week.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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I'd like to think that the only time a coach should change a specific element of a swing would be to work on a specific problem. In my limited experience, that isn't always the case.

I finally scheduled a lesson from an instructor who claimed he doesn't like to overhaul someone's swing - that his method is to tweak parts of it to improve consistency or a a repeating problem. Of course, he hasn't seen my swing yet and in all seriousness, I'm sure some swings need to be overhauled.

From the perspective of a high handicapper, someone who shoots low scores shouldn't need to start from scratch (no pun intended). But that they might recognize a problem that's holding them back and seek help from a pro to work on that specific need. A good pro wouldn't try to fix something that isn't broken.

If you believe that the 5SK are very necessary for a good swing, maybe how you accomplish them isn't important as the fact that they are being accomplished. Just my uneducated opinion.

Jon

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At what point does a swing flaw just become part of your swing? Ala Jim Furyk. Sometimes we get wrapped up in a picture of what a swing is supposed to look like. Or what is supposed to be the most consistent.


Is this in regards to your swing?

This type of stuff tends to be too generic to really discuss. What kind of "flaw"? A big flip? Not gonna be a great golfer with that. Re-routing some weird way on the backswing, but a very good downswing? Might win a U.S. Open.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I know I have flaws everyone has a flaw. The thing I'm trying to determine is at what point do I accept that I'm gonna get worse before I get better. What pieces of instruction do I do and what don't i do. I have been playing for a long time and some things I have be told to do I did and decided to not do anymore. Things like getting my hands more forward at set up has an adverse effect on my ball flight. I also notice that my ball starts more right than I want.
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The thing I'm trying to determine is at what point do I accept that I'm gonna get worse before I get better.

Why do you have to get worse before you get better? Sometimes - more often than you might think - golfers get better without any "worse" period. It depends on the golfer and what their priority piece is.

And other things take time to get. A guy who is used to playing pull-draws may have trouble aiming properly if he's working on fixing it. Virtually nothing in golf comes easy and far too often, students give up on something because "it stopped working." In reality, they stopped doing it as well as they had.

What pieces of instruction do I do and what don't i do.

1) If it's not one of the 5SK, it's probably not worth doing. (Note… any good golf lesson strives to push someone towards improving at one of the 5SK - I don't mean it has to be from a 5SK instructor).

2) Given #1, if it's not your priority at the moment, it can wait.

I have been playing for a long time and some things I have be told to do I did and decided to not do anymore. Things like getting my hands more forward at set up has an adverse effect on my ball flight. I also notice that my ball starts more right than I want.

Just being honest here… I doubt you were doing it properly. That doesn't mean it was or wasn't good advice. It was likely geared to helping you stop flipping:


I'm still trying to figure out the point of this thread.

You're not over-coached. Maybe you've been coached on the wrong things, maybe you haven't put in the required work, maybe it's something that doesn't matter (like Furyk's backswing). I don't know. Too generic.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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I know I have flaws everyone has a flaw. The thing I'm trying to determine is at what point do I accept that I'm gonna get worse before I get better. What pieces of instruction do I do and what don't i do.

I have been playing for a long time and some things I have be told to do I did and decided to not do anymore. Things like getting my hands more forward at set up has an adverse effect on my ball flight. I also notice that my ball starts more right than I want.

Yes everyone has flaws, there is no "perfect" swing. Tiger, Hogan, Grant Waite, you can always find something to critique.

Negative results also doesn't mean it was a "bad" swing. Sometimes when I practice I make great swings but the shots are terrible. Your body just has to get use to the different position or feel. If you keep making better swings, the results will follow.

Just from what you've posted, it's seems you "try" things and if you don't get immediate results you stop doing it. I do think if you made some slow, "chip swings" with the hips staying forward, you'd see some great results. Even in that 9 iron video they slide back.

If you're pushing it with the hands forward, the hands forward isn't the problem, it's basically making it harder for you to flip and get the face left enough to match your path, which is left because of how your hips work on the backswing.

Mike McLoughlin

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I'm still trying to figure out the point of this thread.

I think I understand the OP's question. It is a generic question but has a lot to do with being a stupid monkey and trust.

Those of us who take advice from Erik and Mike trust them 100%. If they tell us to work on something or offer a suggestion, there's a real reason. They'll pick out the one area that requires the most immediate attention and because of our trust, we won't give up when we don't get immediate results. Personally, I have to understand why getting the hips forward works because that's how I like to learn. Fortunately, all 5 keys and the order they're in make sense to me as do the ball flight laws (execution however is another story).

But I've been in a situation where a coach was more concerned that I used an overlaping grip or how I finished my swing than getting my weight and hands forward (for example). I didn't know any better, so I spent several months worrying about how I finished while using a grip that never felt right, the whole time flipping at the ball and wondering why I kept hitting weak fades.

As most of the experienced players on this site have stated, there are a lot of bad instructors out there. If the OP has had the misfortune of working with one, I can understand his reluctance to becoming a stupid monkey.

Jon

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My reasoning behind the thread was to see how much coaching a golfer is willing to take. If u have a Louis oosthuizen beautiful swing but the results aren't there why change so much of your swing. Look at tiger. My personal swing I feel like I could change quite a bit. I am very interested in understanding what I need to do to get better. I just don't wanna compromise my game all together.
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My reasoning behind the thread was to see how much coaching a golfer is willing to take. If u have a Louis oosthuizen beautiful swing but the results aren't there why change so much of your swing. Look at tiger.

Yeah, sorry, maybe it's just me, but this isn't really something you can discuss.

"Look at Tiger" what? The guy was lost, then became Player of the Year with five victories last year (in big events). So what about him? Oosthuizen is 61st in the world. Kind of fell off a bit no?

How much "coaching" a golfer is "willing" to take is a vast and complicated subject, with tens of factors that all weigh in. Don't you think?

My personal swing I feel like I could change quite a bit. I am very interested in understanding what I need to do to get better. I just don't wanna compromise my game all together.

We've given you that advice. Again, maybe it's just me, but I don't really know what this means. Make better swings, or be content to be exactly where you are right now years from now, making the same old swings and getting the same old results.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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My reasoning behind the thread was to see how much coaching a golfer is willing to take. If u have a Louis oosthuizen beautiful swing but the results aren't there why change so much of your swing. Look at tiger.

Like Erik said, it depends on the players and many other factors. Bubba doesn't want any coaching except when it comes to fitness. Other guys want swing coaching, other guys want "yes man" coaching.

When it comes to the average Joe, some players understand improvement is a journey and others want a quick fix.

My personal swing I feel like I could change quite a bit. I am very interested in understanding what I need to do to get better. I just don't wanna compromise my game all together.

You know what you need to do, here's some info on how to help you do it

Mike McLoughlin

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Guys I have just heard a lot of tiger and his split with Sean foley. The people on tv constantly said that he was being over coached. That got me thinking about how u knew when this was happening. My personal swing got wrapped up in the discussion.
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Thinking about the question "over coached" brought this to mind. I think to be a good swing coach the instructor has to be able lower his/her swing, teaching ability to that of the the student's. An instructor who can play near scratch, or better golf, has to  be able to understand, and coach like they are the 20 handicapper they are working with. I think what happens sometimes is the higher handicapper cannot understand what's being put on them because they have no idea what it's like to play scratch golf. In that regard the higher handicapper is being over coached by being blasted with too much info.

As for getting worse before getting better, I'm not sure that's an absolute truth. I go back to times when I played really well, but just did not score well. I drove the ball well, I hit nice approaches, and I putted well. I just didn't score well. The not scoring well, during a series of instruction, get's misconstrued as playing worse. Take a rock solid 10 handicapper for instance. That golfer, like every other golf will have a stretches, where they will play 12 handicap golf. They will also have stretches, if the instruction is working,  where they will play 8 handicap golf. When the dust settles they are a solid 9 handicapper, who hopefully will be working their way to an 8.

In My Bag:
A whole bunch of Tour Edge golf stuff...... :beer:

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Thinking about the question "over coached" brought this to mind. I think to be a good swing coach the instructor has to be able lower his/her swing, teaching ability to that of the the student's. An instructor who can play near scratch, or better golf, has to  be able to understand, and coach like they are the 20 handicapper they are working with. I think what happens sometimes is the higher handicapper cannot understand what's being put on them because they have no idea what it's like to play scratch golf. In that regard the higher handicapper is being over coached by being blasted with too much info.

I'm not sure that really says very much. What does it mean to "lower my teaching ability to that of the student"?

I don't have to remember what it was like to shank, fat, thin, or whiff every other golf ball I swung at in order to teach someone. I simply need to be able to convey the ONE thing that is most important to them in a way that they can understand it and apply it.

Good teaching is comprised of a few things.

  1. Good technical knowledge.
  2. Proper prioritization.
  3. Great communication.

If you're basically saying that you can't tell an 18 handicapper to do 20 things to swing like Greg Norman or whomever, yeah, but that falls under "duh" doesn't it? :-) Every golfer is capable of understanding and trying to do ONE thing at a time, and if it's the proper piece and one of the top priorities, and the instructor communicates well, the golfer gets a great lesson.

A good lesson has nothing to do with "what it's like to play scratch golf." A good lesson is just "what is the most important thing I have to do to get better."

If that's what you were saying, then cool - we agree.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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I took a lesson today for the first time in almost 2 years. As I mentioned above, in our initial conversation he told me he didn't like to overhaul anyone's swing. So he started out todays lesson asking me to take a couple of swings then proceeded to try and change just about everything. The worst thing was that while some of it was consistent, some of what he wanted to change went against what I've learned from this forum and what has provided some progress.

But, all was not lost. This instructor was doing his job. He saw flaws and he pointed them out. I was very honest with him about what I'd work on changing and what I'd leave alone - all the time keeping an open mind and trying very hard to comprehend and make sense of what he had to say. We were very respectful towards one another - even joking about it -  and in the end, some of his suggestions had very immediate and positives effects on the quality of my shots.

My point relative to this thread is that no one stuck a gun to my head and said "do it all my way"! At the same time, I'd have been stupid to pay for a lesson and not try really hard to get something useful from it.

If I had tried to do everything he suggested, I'd be back where I was two years ago. At my age and with my goals, life is just too short.  And if I were too stubborn, egotistical and stupid to ignore the results of the "me teaching myself" method, I'd have remained in the same inconsistent quagmire (giggidy) that has been my game for the last month and a half.

So I combined the stuff he said that made sense with the old stuff that I didn't think was broken and afterward shot a pretty good game of golf.

Was I over coached? No. I'm an adult of average intelligence and can make my own decisions (unless my wife tells me otherwise :-D ). I went to this lesson without unrealistic expectations of someone turning my game around. I'd hoped simply for a couple of pieces of information that might help and that's exactly what I received. It was money well spent.

Jon

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I don't have to remember what it was like to shank, fat, thin, or whiff every other golf ball I swung at in order to teach someone. I simply need to be able to convey the ONE thing that is most important to them in a way that they can understand it and apply it.

Good teaching is comprised of a few things.

Good technical knowledge.

Proper prioritization.

Great communication.

QFT

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

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I took a lesson today for the first time in almost 2 years. As I mentioned above, in our initial conversation he told me he didn't like to overhaul anyone's swing. So he started out todays lesson asking me to take a couple of swings then proceeded to try and change just about everything. The worst thing was that while some of it was consistent, some of what he wanted to change went against what I've learned from this forum and what has provided some progress.

But, all was not lost. This instructor was doing his job. He saw flaws and he pointed them out. I was very honest with him about what I'd work on changing and what I'd leave alone - all the time keeping an open mind and trying very hard to comprehend and make sense of what he had to say. We were very respectful towards one another - even joking about it -  and in the end, some of his suggestions had very immediate and positives effects on the quality of my shots.

My point relative to this thread is that no one stuck a gun to my head and said "do it all my way"! At the same time, I'd have been stupid to pay for a lesson and not try really hard to get something useful from it.

If I had tried to do everything he suggested, I'd be back where I was two years ago. At my age and with my goals, life is just too short.  And if I were too stubborn, egotistical and stupid to ignore the results of the "me teaching myself" method, I'd have remained in the same inconsistent quagmire (giggidy) that has been my game for the last month and a half.

So I combined the stuff he said that made sense with the old stuff that I didn't think was broken and afterward shot a pretty good game of golf.

I think this is the best example of what I was trying to get across with this thread. So of the things that we all learn about the golf swing. Some things may not be what fits for our personal swings. Everyones is different.

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