Club Fitting

[Waddaplaya]

On 6/2/2019 at 8:00 AM, Vinsk said:

Wha...wha...what? $70 to reshaft and grip all your clubs? 

So... I was wrong. I went to pick up the the 6 iron he made to my specs and it was 70 bucks. So 70 bucks for the new shaft, grip, and the labor of doing it. I asked him how much it would be for the rest of the set if I were to do the rest of the bag (3,4,5,7,8,9,PW, GW, SW, LW) it would be 70 x the amount of clubs. So... I am definitely in a dilemma. Even if I loved the way this club was hitting I am not spending 700 to redo my 20 year old Tommy Armour irons. 

[Farangster]

On 6/1/2019 at 10:39 AM, Adam C said:

How were your grips? Were your grips okay or were they FUBAR like everything else? Sounds like they did everything to your clubs short of bringing in a shaman to banish the evil spirits. 

Let me start out by saying this, if you go to a teaching pro and say you're hitting it badly, they are going to work on your swing. If you go to a club fitter, with the exact same problem, they are going to work on your equipment. 

First, the shafts. I know that it can be disheartening to hear that there's no standard for flex but the reason for that is not to dupe the consumer, it's simply the number of variables that can influence flex. It's nice to hear that they still use their old frequency machine where you went (the thing that tells the stiffness of the shaft when they lock it in a vice and twang it). Unfortunately, it's really useless in these capacities. I have a frequency machine, but I only use it as a way to measure how consistent a shaft is, aka radial quality. If you care you can find my use for it on Youtube at the Mobile Clubmaker. Beyond that, not much use to it. A club fitter will tell you that a shaft is incredibly important. It's a rocket engine in their minds. That's just not true. The goal of a shaft is to return the club head to the back of the ball in the position you put it in. It's on you. A shaft can only influence two things. Launch height and direction, but only left direction (for RH golfers and vice versa for LH). A more flexible shaft can allow the club head to flex forward and more closed, meaning higher, more left launch. But this is only the case for certain golfers who load the shaft at the appropriate time. For golfers with an early release, it doesn't matter. The shaft has already flexed and returned to neutral before you get to the ball. All this is to say, if you have issues hitting it high enough or not closing the face enough at impact, a shaft can help you but that's all it can do.

What you should focus on with shafts in my opinion is in this order.

1. Weight- by far the most important spec on a shaft, as it can influence the swing to the greatest extent.

2. Consistency- does the shaft flex consistently around it's circumference. Older shafts, especially graphite could be very inconsistent. Modern carbon fiber shafts are much better but can still be inconsistent, steel for the most part is very consistent.

3. Balance point- only an issue with carbon fiber. Influences swing weight, how the club feels and therefore can influence the swing.

4. Bend profile- used to be called kick point. Refers to how and where the shaft bends which can influence the launch height and direction we already discussed.

5. Price- depending on the golfer this can be higher up the list.

6. Torque, Paint color- torque don't worry about, some people like to talk about it, but it's not worth mentioning here.

After all these, you can pick the flex that works for your swing. But remember, the shaft's flex is directly related to the head weight and the length. A heavier head or longer shaft will make the shaft more flexible.

As for weight and lofts. Weights can be off from iron to iron. Depending who builds them or the brand, there can be discrepancies. Will it be enough for you to notice? Depends on the person and the amount. Did you notice the weight issues from your 845s. Assuming they were 845?

Lofts can also be off either right from the factory or for extended use. Never a bad idea to have your lofts and lie angles checked every so often.

As for your driver loft, lie, and face angle issues. I would be skeptical about that measurement of 12 or 13 degrees loft at the 9 degree setting. That is way outside of any manufacturing tolerance. I not saying they did this on purpose but I can take any driver and based on how I set it in the machine, or where I measure on the face, I can get huge variations in loft on the same club. The key to measuring a driver is to minimize variables and I just don't know if they did that. If you really want to know if those numbers are correct, I would be happy to measure it for you if you ship it to me. Just pay for shipping both ways.

Face angles will change when you alter the loft on an adjustable hosel. Different drivers will also be either closed, open, or square. However this only matters if you play the driver from this position and don't manually adjust your setup at address. I can take a open faced driver, close the face at setup and hit hooks with it and like wise with a closed face driver. Lie angle will also change on the driver when adjusting it, however this is of little importance with a low lofted club like a driver.

Sorry this response really got long. Basic summation, some of what they addressed was correct/important, some of it not. If you have more questions let me know. I realize I kind of went all over the place here.

Nice, appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge.  IMO it's good for golfers to experiment first with different stuff on the course before going to a clubfitter.  Get stuff off Ebay for cheap to experiment with total club weight, club length, swing weight, shaft flex and see what floats your boat through your whole set, especially sense everyone is so different.  Afterwards, go to a fitter with an idea of what works for you and what you like, especially when your throwing down $1,400 for a new set of shiny irons.  Considering how expensive golf clubs are getting year after year, it seems like more of a necessity for every golfer to experiment first, "play before you pay" when new stuff is so incredibly pricey.  Don't go in there blind expecting them to fix you if you throw enough money at them.  Then if you get lessons, change your swing..........you really need to go through this whole thing from scratch again.

[Waddaplaya]

I imagine this fitter would argue that regardless of your skill level your fitting would be about the same. He values shaft loading more than swing speed so even if your speed went up he would most likely fit you into something similar. The length of the clubs wouldn't change. The grip size would stay the same. I imagine like you said you'd need to experiment with swing weight to determine what you prefer. 

I think what I am going to do at this point is take the specs of this 6 iron and them just build the rest of the set myself. 

[Adam C]

2 hours ago, Waddaplaya said:

I imagine this fitter would argue that regardless of your skill level your fitting would be about the same. He values shaft loading more than swing speed so even if your speed went up he would most likely fit you into something similar. The length of the clubs wouldn't change. The grip size would stay the same. I imagine like you said you'd need to experiment with swing weight to determine what you prefer. 

I think what I am going to do at this point is take the specs of this 6 iron and them just build the rest of the set myself. 

What shaft and grip were you using? Just wanting to get idea of the cost breakdown.

[Waddaplaya]

So the new shaft he installed on my 6 iron is:

True Temper TT Lite XL Steel Iron Shafts R

and the grips they put in are:

Lamkin Crossine Midsize 

Can I just buy these shafts myself and the grips and do the rest of my set?

[Shindig]

47 minutes ago, Waddaplaya said:

Can I just buy these shafts myself and the grips and do the rest of my set?

Sure;  assuming you know how to remove the old shaft, cut the new one to size, install it, and place on the grip.

I have done installation of shafts and grips in the past, but I've never removed an old shaft.  It's a fun experience. 

You also need to have the relevant tools around to do it;  you can get a club building kit for like $100 from GolfWorks.  Check out their club building catalog.  It's fun too.

[Waddaplaya]

8 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Sure;  assuming you know how to remove the old shaft, cut the new one to size, install it, and place on the grip.

I have done installation of shafts and grips in the past, but I've never removed an old shaft.  It's a fun experience. 

You also need to have the relevant tools around to do it;  you can get a club building kit for like $100 from GolfWorks.  Check out their club building catalog.  It's fun too.

Out of those things I have replaced grips. I wouldn’t be against learnings the rest of the process though. I just ordered a scale to swing weight a club so I have at least one tool. I also have the stuff to regrip the clubs.

[Adam C]

1 hour ago, Waddaplaya said:

So the new shaft he installed on my 6 iron is:

True Temper TT Lite XL Steel Iron Shafts R

and the grips they put in are:

Lamkin Crossine Midsize 

Can I just buy these shafts myself and the grips and do the rest of my set?

TT Lites are discontinued model so you may have a little trouble finding a full set in your specs. I can't remember off the top of my head whether those TAs are taper or parallel, you will want to make sure you know, before buying shafts.

If it helps I have been putting together a video series on youtube where I cover many of the basics of club building. It's based off a club making class I used to teach. You can search it under Mobile Clubmaker. I know there are plenty of youtube videos out there about golf club building but it's amazing how few of them are actually done by knowledgeable builders.

If you have any specific assembly questions, feel free to send me a message.

[Waddaplaya]

It looks like they have them here 

True Temper TT Lite XL .355" Steel Iron Shafts

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True Temper TT Lite XL .355" Steel Iron Shafts

What are tapered and paralleled tips? I know nothing about replace shafts. 

[Adam C]

30 minutes ago, Waddaplaya said:

It looks like they have them here 

True Temper TT Lite XL .355" Steel Iron Shafts

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True Temper TT Lite XL .355" Steel Iron Shafts

What are tapered and paralleled tips? I know nothing about replace shafts. 

Refers to the tip of the shaft that goes into the hosel. Irons will be one or the other .355 (taper) or .370 parallel. You want to make sure you get the right one. It's a lot more work otherwise.

[Waddaplaya]

I looked up the original shaft that they were supposed to be stock with and that was the True Temper Golds s300s which were 355s. Then I searched the true tempered trigolds which is what was actually in the club and they were also 355s. So I think I can go with 355s. 

[Waddaplaya]

So it looks like I can order all of the shafts from that site I linked above. 

It looks like they list the shafts for the 9-wedges under the same category. I guess I would order one more for my lob wedge? Would I cut all of the wedges to the same length when I install them? 

Also I don't really know what any of this stuff means either: 

Edited June 8, 2019 by Waddaplaya

[Adam C]

Just to be sure, you may want to pull one of the old shafts and measure the tip. I kind of feel like I have seen TAs in both .355 and .370. May be wrong but...

Yes, you would order an extra 36 for the wedge. As far as butt cutting them, some people keep all the wedges the same final length, some like to trim them at small increments so that the LW is slightly shorter than SW, which is slightly shorter than PW. Personal preference. I usually keep them the same so the higher lofts don't get too short.

As for the other stuff, don't PURE, never PURE, total waste of money and time. If you do need .355 tip shafts, you don't tip cut them, only butt cut to final length (which you should really only do after you have epoxied the heads, so you can get accurate measurements).

Tip prepping refers to just roughing up the tip section where the shaft fits in the head. If you have a belt sander, or even just sand paper, it's simple to do yourself. Just trying to remove some of the chrome finish, rough it up a bit to get a better epoxy bond.

[Waddaplaya]

Ok awesome. The way they list those shafts they have a length by each iron. Are they already cut to those lengths or do they all come as one standard length. I don’t get why they list them like that. 

[Adam C]

9 hours ago, Waddaplaya said:

Ok awesome. The way they list those shafts they have a length by each iron. Are they already cut to those lengths or do they all come as one standard length. I don’t get why they list them like that. 

.355 taper tip shafts have the tip of the shaft tapered down like the name says on the last inch approx. Because of that each shaft is pre made to go into a specific iron based on weight and launch characteristics. So what they tell you there is what iron number each shaft should go with. That being said, some people will also do what's referred to as hard or soft stepping where you basically put the 7 iron shaft in the 6 iron and continue this pattern through the set (hard stepping) to make it stiffer and lower launch, or put 5 iron shaft in 6 iron etc (soft stepping) to make the set play softer and launch higher. Just as a side note, .370 shafts don't have that tapered end and usually just come in one length (usually 41 inches). In this case you have to cut the tip section first based on shaft brand recommendations to get the correct flex and launch for each iron head, then continue the process we've already discussed.

You will still have to butt cut the shafts before gripping, because the uncut length is still too long. Make sure you understand how to measure clubs correctly so you get the right length.

[Waddaplaya]

18 minutes ago, Adam C said:

.355 taper tip shafts have the tip of the shaft tapered down like the name says on the last inch approx. Because of that each shaft is pre made to go into a specific iron based on weight and launch characteristics. So what they tell you there is what iron number each shaft should go with. That being said, some people will also do what's referred to as hard or soft stepping where you basically put the 7 iron shaft in the 6 iron and continue this pattern through the set (hard stepping) to make it stiffer and lower launch, or put 5 iron shaft in 6 iron etc (soft stepping) to make the set play softer and launch higher. Just as a side note, .370 shafts don't have that tapered end and usually just come in one length (usually 41 inches). In this case you have to cut the tip section first based on shaft brand recommendations to get the correct flex and launch for each iron head, then continue the process we've already discussed.

 You will still have to butt cut the shafts before gripping, because the uncut length is still too long. Make sure you understand how to measure clubs correctly so you get the right length.

Ok Adam, I really appreciate all of this information. Through my fitting he determined I am a +.5 inch long so I guess I should measure this 6 iron that he made up for me to make sure I am correct with the +.5 inch addition throughout the set. You are a serious wealth of information! 

[Adam C]

If you check out my youtube video on cutting dow a shaft, I go through how to measure a club correctly.

 

[colin007]

Hey @Adam C, do you have any insight or thoughts on these?

Harrison shatmaker golf shaft insert

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golf shaft insert