Example of Dropping on a Cart Path?

[reidsou]

Does anyone know of a video example of a player taking relief on a cart path? (It happened to Zach Johnson in round one of the Mayakoba Classic last week, but I don't have video.) 

I ask because this is a common confusion at my club - members will take penalty relief from a lateral penalty area across the cart path, which is incorrect. Would like to show an example of the correct procedure. 

Relevant rules are 14, 16, and 17. 

[Rulesman]

This is a pretty good but rather wooden explanation. 

Just ignore the out of date instruction on dropping - it's now knee height of course

 

[reidsou]

16 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

This is a pretty good but rather wooden explanation. 

Just ignore the out of date instruction on dropping - it's now knee height of course

 

Thanks. This is a great example of how to take relief from a cart path. But I'm looking for something more obscure - example of taking relief onto a cart path. 

There are many ways this can happen. A common one is when a lateral penalty area is next to a cart path - relief within two club lengths of the point of entry may be on the cart path. 

[DaveP043]

40 minutes ago, reidsou said:

Does anyone know of a video example of a player taking relief on a cart path? (It happened to Zach Johnson in round one of the Mayakoba Classic last week, but I don't have video.) 

I ask because this is a common confusion at my club - members will take penalty relief from a lateral penalty area across the cart path, which is incorrect. Would like to show an example of the correct procedure. 

Relevant rules are 14, 16, and 17. 

I want to make sure I understand correctly, as this situation happens at a lot of golf courses.  You're specifically talking about a penalty area, and a cart path running about parallel to the penalty area boundary.  There is often a strip of grass between the path and the PA.  For a ball in the PA, the Reference Point for lateral relief is where the ball entered the PA, and the relief area extends 2 clublengths from the Reference Point.  A player taking relief may have to (or choose to) drop on the path.  Depending on what happens, he may then be able to take free relief from the path, but the nearest point of complete relief might put him onto that strip of grass between the path and the PA.  That is still his NPR, even if he might be required to stand in the penalty area. (Please confirm that for me, the Relief Area is in the General Area, but that doesn't mmean you might not have to stand in the Penalty Area).  The thing I believe @reidsou is getting at, lots of players will simply drop on the far side of the path, which is not what the rules allow.

[Rulesman]

OK, got it now. I don't think I have ever seen a video of such a situation but I'll see if I've got any old diagrams or graphics

Edited November 18, 2019 by Rulesman

[reidsou]

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I want to make sure I understand correctly, as this situation happens at a lot of golf courses.  You're specifically talking about a penalty area, and a cart path running about parallel to the penalty area boundary.  There is often a strip of grass between the path and the PA.  For a ball in the PA, the Reference Point for lateral relief is where the ball entered the PA, and the relief area extends 2 clublengths from the Reference Point.  A player taking relief may have to (or choose to) drop on the path.  Depending on what happens, he may then be able to take free relief from the path, but the nearest point of complete relief might put him onto that strip of grass between the path and the PA.  That is still his NPR, even if he might be required to stand in the penalty area. (Please confirm that for me, the Relief Area is in the General Area, but that doesn't mmean you might not have to stand in the Penalty Area).  The thing I believe @reidsou is getting at, lots of players will simply drop on the far side of the path, which is not what the rules allow.

Exactly! 

Yes, the relief area is in the general area. And, yes, relief from the cart path may be on the side near the penalty area, and playing from the cart path might be preferable. The main point being, as you said, you can't just drop on the other side of the path. (My fellow competitors look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them they have to drop on the path.)  

There are many other ways that this can occur - unplayable relief, relief from temporary water, etc. 

[David in FL]

Unless I’m grossly mistaken, the process for dropping onto a cart path doesn’t differ at all from dropping anywhere else.  There’s a higher likelihood that the ball will ultimately come to rest outside of the relief area, but the process for dealing with that is no different than any other drop either...  

Of course, once the initial drop process is complete, the player will likely have the option of taking relief from the cart path, as a distinctly separate procedure.

[reidsou]

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Unless I’m grossly mistaken, the process for dropping onto a cart path doesn’t differ at all from dropping anywhere else.  There’s a higher likelihood that the ball will ultimately come to rest outside of the relief area, but the process for dealing with that is no different than any other drop either...  

Of course, once the initial drop process is complete, the player will likely have the option of taking relief from the cart path, as a distinctly separate procedure.

Completely agree. I'm trying to find a video example to show my club members. 

Here's a sort of example, but way too complicated:

Spieth’s cart-path shot avoids controversial penalty

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What was an incredible shot from the cart part has created yet another rules controversy at a major championship.

 

[Club Rat]

5 hours ago, reidsou said:

t happened to Zach Johnson in round one of the Mayakoba Classic last week,

I just happen to turn on my tv as he was about to play that shot.
Not sure of the circumstance why he was playing it off the path, but it looked like he ripped a fairway wood pretty well.

[reidsou]

27 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I just happen to turn on my tv as he was about to play that shot.
Not sure of the circumstance why he was playing it off the path, but it looked like he ripped a fairway wood pretty well.

The announcers said he chose not to take relief from the cart path because it would have been to his left near the penalty area (where it looked like his swing would have been blocked by bushes in the penalty area). 

[fredf]

On 11/19/2019 at 6:20 AM, Rulesman said:

OK, got it now. I don't think I have ever seen a video of such a situation but I'll see if I've got any old diagrams or graphics

From memory (I am travelling and don't have current access) there are diagrams of complex situations like this in the 2016 Decisions book, see D1-4/8 and D1-4/8.5.  Not the exact OP but the principles are the same and nothing here has changed in 2019.

[reidsou]

39 minutes ago, fredf said:

From memory (I am travelling and don't have current access) there are diagrams of complex situations like this in the 2016 Decisions book, see D1-4/8 and D1-4/8.5.  Not the exact OP but the principles are the same and nothing here has changed in 2019.

Thanks for the reply. I see those two decisions are about the relief area from one abnormal course condition being in another abnormal course condition. (This is addressed in the 2019 rules in Interpretation 16.1/3.) 

My question is simpler. Just want a video (or other illustrative) example showing a player's relief area including a cart path and the player drops on the cart path. 

A common way this occurs is when lateral penalty area relief is on a cart path. Extending that penalty relief area across the cart path is not allowed (even though subsequent free relief from the cart path may bring a similar final result). 

[David in FL]

5 hours ago, reidsou said:

. 

A common way this occurs is when lateral penalty area relief is on a cart path. Extending that penalty relief area across the cart path is not allowed (even though subsequent free relief from the cart path may bring a similar final result). 

Exactly.

Although it isn’t correct, commonly, most of us in casual play will simply realize that a drop on the cart path, once it’s executed properly, will result in the ability to take another drop from that cart path. Rather than go through all the machinations, we will generally just take final relief as if we were taking it originally from the path and move along…

On 11/18/2019 at 7:06 PM, reidsou said:

The announcers said he chose not to take relief from the cart path because it would have been to his left near the penalty area (where it looked like his swing would have been blocked by bushes in the penalty area). 

Yep,  I’ve played from paved cart paths any number of times because it was the better option.

”Relief” doesn’t always mean “better”...

[reidsou]

31 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Although it isn’t correct, commonly, most of us in casual play will simply realize that a drop on the cart path, once it’s executed properly, will result in the ability to take another drop from that cart path. Rather than go through all the machinations, we will generally just take final relief as if we were taking it originally from the path and move along…

Thanks for the response. Yes, in casual play that makes sense. This is about tournaments. I called the USGA. They pointed out that the drop on the cart path is not 100% predictable, and could result in a situation where cart path relief is on an undesirable side of the cart path. Trying to find an illustrative example to show our members. 

[David in FL]

18 minutes ago, reidsou said:

Thanks for the response. Yes, in casual play that makes sense. This is about tournaments. I called the USGA. They pointed out that the drop on the cart path is not 100% predictable, and could result in a situation where cart path relief is on an undesirable side of the cart path. Trying to find an illustrative example to show our members. 

I get it.  But the bottom line is, that just because it’s on the cart path, the actual procedure doesn’t change at all from any other drop.

 That’s why you’re not finding anything.  There’s no difference in the procedure at all.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by David in FL

[iacas]

8 hours ago, David in FL said:

I get it.  But the bottom line is, that just because it’s on the cart path, the actual procedure doesn’t change at all from any other drop.

 That’s why you’re not finding anything.  There’s no difference in the procedure at all.  

This. Drop on the path and proceed.

[reidsou]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

This. Drop on the path and proceed.

See my original post, it was never a question about "what is the correct procedure?"

I'm trying to find video of a player, preferably a well known professional, following correct procedure and dropping on a cart path. That I can show disbelieving club members, who frequently break this rule in tournaments. 

Thought TST community might know of one... thanks in advance! 

[Missouri Swede]

Not a video, but Florida State Golf Association (see point #4) of https://www.fsga.org/sections/content/eRevision---Rules---100116/769

Quote

4. What is the ruling about dropping a ball on the cart path?

In taking relief from the lateral water hazard, one of the options (Rule 26-1c) allows her to drop a ball within two club-lengths of where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard under penalty of one stroke. It does not mention anything about cart paths (obstructions). Therefore, she is required to drop within two club-lengths and if that is on the cart path, so be it. If the ball then comes to rest on the path, she can take relief from the cart path without penalty.

You need to do it in two steps. You are not allowed to skip and just drop over on the fairway (there used to be a Local Rule that allowed you to do that but it has since been removed. I wish they would bring that one back).

 

1 hour ago, reidsou said:

I'm trying to find video of a player, preferably a well known professional, following correct procedure and dropping on a cart path.

Think I found one for you.  Doesn't show the drop taking relief from the penalty area, but shows the result:

PGA TOUR: Fowler Up & Downs From the Cart Path to Save Par

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Rickie Fowler makes an incredible up and down to save par on a par 5 at the Waste Management Phoenix Open at TPC Scottsdale.