T400 Lofts?

[Bonvivant]

A couple of days back, I was posting on another topic about how the numbers on the bottom of the clubs should be consistent to its loft (I was saying across brands/throughout time). I just saw a Rick Shiels podcast video on YT where they brought up these clubs. I am in absolute disbelief. They have P, W, W2 and W3? The 5 iron is 3 degrees stronger than my 3 iron? Is this really what people want/need? Am I missing the mark here? WTF is going on with manufacturers? I would like to get others opinions on this tactic (of strengthening lofts to boost buyers' egos IMO).

Attached is the video and the T400 page on Titleist's site. Scroll down for specs.

Titleist T400 Irons | Titleist T-Series | Titleist Irons

---

Experience a forgiving iron that launches your balls higher and farther. Check out the all new Titleist T400 iron and get fitted today!

 

[billchao]

T-400? I wouldn’t worry about it. When they release the T-800 you’ll hit your 6i so far it’ll have you saying, “Hasta la vista, baby!”

Of course it will inevitably be rendered obsolete by the T-1000, which will be a single club that can change its shape so you can have whatever loft you want on it.

---

In all seriousness, it’s Titleist. They’ve historically been conservative with their equipment, so no, I don’t think it’s a marketing ploy. It says the clubs are designed for moderate swing speed players and they look like small hybrids or driving irons to me, so I imagine the club head launches the ball fairly high which leads to lofts being low.

The common complaint about strong lifting irons is that it creates gapping issues, but moderate swing speed players tend to have gapping issues with traditional lofts anyway, especially at the higher end of the bag. I bet people would buy this set because all they’d need is a SW to round out the bottom end of their bag (if they buy eight irons, 5-W2) and they’re done.

So yes, the clubs are too strong. For me. For Rick Shiels. For my 80 year old friend? Maybe not. He might actually be able to use more than four clubs in his bag.

[Bonvivant]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

T-400? I wouldn’t worry about it. When they release the T-800 you’ll hit your 6i so far it’ll have you saying, “Hasta la vista, baby!”

Of course it will inevitably be rendered obsolete by the T-1000, which will be a single club that can change its shape so you can have whatever loft you want on it.

---

In all seriousness, it’s Titleist. They’ve historically been conservative with their equipment, so no, I don’t think it’s a marketing ploy. It says the clubs are designed for moderate swing speed players and they look like small hybrids or driving irons to me, so I imagine the club head launches the ball fairly high which leads to lofts being low.

The common complaint about strong lifting irons is that it creates gapping issues, but moderate swing speed players tend to have gapping issues with traditional lofts anyway, especially at the higher end of the bag. I bet people would buy this set because all they’d need is a SW to round out the bottom end of their bag (if they buy eight irons, 5-W2) and they’re done.

So yes, the clubs are too strong. For me. For Rick Shiels. For my 80 year old friend? Maybe not. He might actually be able to use more than four clubs in his bag.

Thanks for the reply. I just don't understand why they don't call this set 3-g/a/whatever. They are using the length of the iron to determine the number instead of the loft. I don't really have a problem with the lofts themselves and I don't think they are too strong for you, rick, and whoever. We have plenty of numbers to value the clubs, but instead of using them, they add w, w2, w3. It's all backwards to me. 

[HoganApexFan]

I don't think you are missing the mark at all.  It seems crazy that a single manufacturer can stamp a "7" on an iron and have it vary from 35 deg (MB/CB) to 26 deg (T400).  Hybrids became successful because of their versatility and the difficulty so many had when hitting the longer irons.  The T400 5 iron is only 20 deg, which is stronger than their own MB/CB 3 iron. 

[billchao]

10 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I just don't understand why they don't call this set 3-g/a/whatever.

What would you have them call it? 3-9, GW, SW?

Maybe they should name them by letter so people can stop obsessing over the static loft, which means very little considering two players can hit the same club with completely different dynamic loft.

2 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

Hybrids became successful because of their versatility and the difficulty so many had when hitting the longer irons.  The T400 5 iron is only 20 deg, which is stronger than their own MB/CB 3 iron. 

I’m glad you brought up hybrids. For years I carried a 4h and a 4i of the same loft. The 4h carried a club farther. Static loft isn’t everything. Club head design matters.

[Bonvivant]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

What would you have them call it? 3-9, GW, SW?

Maybe they should name them by letter so people can stop obsessing over the static loft, which means very little considering two players can hit the same club with completely different dynamic loft.

I’m glad you brought up hybrids. For years I carried a 4h and a 4i of the same loft. The 4h carried a club farther. Static loft isn’t everything. Club head design matters.

3-gw or 2-pw. To me that is what they are. I understand that dynamic lofts change with head design. High launching heads should be marketed as such in my mind, as opposed to shifting iron number by more than 2 clubs in regards to loft. 

I don't think they need to name them by letter when the number system used to work fine (generally lofts were close enough to be comparable). If you picked up a 5 iron from any set, it would look like a 5 iron (loft) at address. If I pick up different 5 irons today, some of them look like 5 wood loft, not 5 iron. 

[Matt Maxey]

I've been known to obsess over the same thing until I got a response on here that made me think of it differently. The conclusion I've come to (with the help of the members of this forum) is that the number on the bottom of the club isn't what's important. The distance, dispersion and gap between clubs are what is important. As long as you can get around the golf course and have fun doing it doesn't matter what the bottom of the club has stamped on it.

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

3-gw or 2-pw. To me that is what they are.

There’s no PW in that set. PW is typically 45-48°. 49° hasn’t been a PW standard in 30 years.

3 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

High launching heads should be marketed as such in my mind, as opposed to shifting iron number by more than 2 clubs in regards to loft. 

Did you read the Titleist website? That’s exactly what they’re marketed as. You’re nitpicking over the loft vs other sets because that seems to be a hot button issue with you.

5 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

If you picked up a 5 iron from any set, it would look like a 5 iron (loft) at address. If I pick up different 5 irons today, some of them look like 5 wood loft, not 5 iron. 

If you handed me any club I doubt I could tell you what it is simply by what it looks like from address. Obviously I’m not going to mistake a 4i for a 9i, but I won’t be able to tell you if I’m holding a 5i or a 6i.

I doubt you’d be able to tell me the exact loft of a 5i solely from address, either.

[Bonvivant]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

There’s no PW in that set. PW is typically 45-48°. 49° hasn’t been a PW standard in 30 years.

Did you read the Titleist website? That’s exactly what they’re marketed as. You’re nitpicking over the loft vs other sets because that seems to be a hot button issue with you.

If you handed me any club I doubt I could tell you what it is simply by what it looks like from address. Obviously I’m not going to mistake a 4i for a 9i, but I won’t be able to tell you if I’m holding a 5i or a 6i.

I doubt you’d be able to tell me the exact loft of a 5i solely from address, either.

If there's no pw in that set then what does the P stand for? My pw is 49 and its from 2002. I'll concede that it is a hot one for me because it doesn't make any sense to me why you would abandon half of the number system for no reason (maybe other than people hear that long irons are hard to hit so they don't want to buy anything with a number lower than 5 or 6 on, and the companies still want to sell 8 club sets).

I said nothing about being able to tell exact lofts. I was talking about the shock of having a club 10 degrees stronger than expected. If you can't tell the difference between the loft of a 7 iron and a 4 iron at address, then that's you. I can, personally. 

I'm waiting for a 12 iron set like they used to do with the eye 2s etc., where it starts at 5 iron (probably 13 dregrees of loft by then with 5 iron length) and goes to W8!

[Darkfrog]

I’m not outraged and don’t get what the fuss is about. My PW is 47 degrees and I know how far it goes, so that’s all that matters for my game. If someone else’s PW is 38 degrees, so be it.

I don’t think it’s for ego boosting for distance. I think these types of clubs help their intended purchasing demographic play better golf.

I occasionally get paired with an older Korean man who basically has a full set of hybrids replacing his irons and they’re really good for his game. More players could probably use this type of set, tbh. 

[Bonvivant]

5 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

More players could probably use this type of set, tbh. 

I agree that plenty of players benefit from these sets. I just have a hard time understanding why they number by length of club instead of loft. That's really it. My question is, where does it end? Will all SGIs be playing one length clubs in 10 years?

[billchao]

37 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

If there's no pw in that set then what does the P stand for?

I’m saying there’s not PW by loft. There’s obviously a PW, it’s the one that comes after the 9i.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

My pw is 49 and its from 2002.

Your club is almost 20 years old. 49° is not the “standard” loft for a PW anymore and it hasn’t been for years.

40 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I'll concede that it is a hot one for me because it doesn't make any sense to me why you would abandon half of the number system for no reason

They didn’t abandon the numbered iron system. They’re still using it. The T400 irons are available 5-W.

You're the one arbitrarily assigning a set loft to an already arbitrary numbering system to begin with. What is a 4i anyway? It’s the one between your 3i and your 5i. That’s it. Call it a 4i, call it a D iron, call it a mashie iron if you want to, it doesn’t matter. The whole point is so you (or your caddy) can grab the right club for the shot you’re trying to hit.

45 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I said nothing about being able to tell exact lofts. I was talking about the shock of having a club 10 degrees stronger than expected.

You have some very strange idiosyncrasies about your golf clubs. I care more that I’m staring down at a shovel than I do the fact that it’s “stronger than expected.”

50 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I'm waiting for a 12 iron set like they used to do with the eye 2s etc., where it starts at 5 iron (probably 13 dregrees of loft by then with 5 iron length) and goes to W8!

Who plays 12 irons, nevermind would buy 12 irons these days?

[Bonvivant]

Just now, billchao said:

I’m saying there’s not PW by loft. There’s obviously a PW, it’s the one that comes after the 9i.

Your club is almost 20 years old. 49° is not the “standard” loft for a PW anymore and it hasn’t been for years.

They didn’t abandon the numbered iron system. They’re still using it. The T400 irons are available 5-W.

You're the one arbitrarily assigning a set loft to an already arbitrary numbering system to begin with. What is a 4i anyway? It’s the one between your 3i and your 5i. That’s it. Call it a 4i, call it a D iron, call it a mashie iron if you want to, it doesn’t matter. The whole point is so you (or your caddy) can grab the right club for the shot you’re trying to hit.

You have some very strange idiosyncrasies about your golf clubs. I care more that I’m staring down at a shovel than I do the fact that it’s “stronger than expected.”

Who plays 12 irons, nevermind would buy 12 irons these days?

I see your point that it doesn't matter. To me the origin came from it being the 1st, 2nd, 3rd iron, etc. in the set. As stronger loft irons (1 and 2) became fazed out and replaced by other clubs, they stuck with the numbering they had for alike clubs. I'm curious how far the manufacturers will take this. 

The 12 iron thing was just a facetious joke, but one that shows how goofy it is (to me) to strenthen lofts. 

Thanks for the replies. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I see your point that it doesn't matter.

Let's stick with this. Because it really doesn't matter… And it's not like Titleist is hiding the lofts of the clubs from people.

Here's the deal, @Bonvivant. Stop thinking of irons as being numbered so that you can compare a T400 to a T100 or something, but so you can tell your T400 6I apart from your T400 7I, 8I, etc.

Not every kid named "Pete" is the exact same as every other kid, but I'm not aware of any families with three or four boys all named "Pete." 🙂

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Of course it will inevitably be rendered obsolete by the T-1000,

We will all be rendered obsolete by the T 1000!

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Not every kid named "Pete" is the exact same as every other kid, but I'm not aware of any families with three or four boys all named "Pete." 🙂

OT: George Foreman (but probably the exception that proves the rule):
 

Spoiler

Foreman has 12 children, five sons and seven daughters. His five sons are George Jr., George III ("Monk"), George IV ("Big Wheel"), George V ("Red"), and George VI ("Little Joey"). On his website, Foreman explains, "I named all my sons George Edward Foreman so they would always have something in common.

 

[iacas]

I said Pete! 🙂

[billchao]

40 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

OT: George Foreman (but probably the exception that proves the rule):
 

  Hide contents

Foreman has 12 children, five sons and seven daughters. His five sons are George Jr., George III ("Monk"), George IV ("Big Wheel"), George V ("Red"), and George VI ("Little Joey"). On his website, Foreman explains, "I named all my sons George Edward Foreman so they would always have something in common.

 

I can’t think of a better argument against getting hit in the head repeatedly than a guy naming his sons all the same exact name “so they would always have something in common.”