Draws vs. Hooks?

[badbeatj]

I've read the differences between draws and hooks.

From what I gather, a draw (for a right handed person) has the ball start to the right of centre and come back to the centre line / target

A pull hook starts left of centre and continues to go left resulting in a far left miss.

What is a normal hook then?

 

Does it start right of centre and then comes too far left and crosses over the centreline and ends up on the left side?

 

I have been working on my driver alot this past couple of months.

 

The issue I am having is that I will hit a proper draw 8/10 times but that 2/10 will not draw and is rather more a straight ball <50 RPM sidespine OR more disastrously a 350 RPM right side spin and it'll slice further right 30 yards of centre line.

As a result, I almost prefer aiming right side of fairway and hitting a foresure draw or hook that will at worst keep me left edge of fairway or even left rough (but not OB)

 

Is there a more concrete description or definition of a proper draw?

 

For example, 

Hit ball 2 degrees right and have left side spin of 250 RPM?

Whereas I'm probably hitting more like 3-3.5 degrees right and have a 450 RPM left side spin?

 

 

 

[billchao]

You can hit a straight-draw and a pull-draw. The way I differentiate between a draw and a hook is how much the ball curves and the apex height. Hooks fly lower.

[saevel25]

Most ball flights for PGA tour players are neutral, slight curves. 

A hook is basically uncontrollable. I would basis on spin axis tilt. 

 

[Golfingdad]

53 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Is there a more concrete description or definition of a proper draw?

It's a matter of preference.  By and large, I imagine the majority of people would consider a slight push draw, where you set up aimed directly at your target and start the ball a couple of yards right and then draw it back to the target, to be the closest to a "proper" draw.

But really whatever works for each person is what's proper.  Bubba Watson hits a gazillion yard slice on purpose sometimes, and that is perfectly proper as well.

I tend towards a "Straight draw" so I usually aim down the right side of fairway to give more room (and hope I don't miss right lol)

[iacas]

A hook is only a bigger draw.

You can hit a push-hook, a straight-hook, or a pull-hook.

You can replace the word "hook" with "draw" in that sentence and it's still a valid sentence.

[badbeatj]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

It's a matter of preference.  By and large, I imagine the majority of people would consider a slight push draw, where you set up aimed directly at your target and start the ball a couple of yards right and then draw it back to the target, to be the closest to a "proper" draw.

But really whatever works for each person is what's proper.  Bubba Watson hits a gazillion yard slice on purpose sometimes, and that is perfectly proper as well.

I tend towards a "Straight draw" so I usually aim down the right side of fairway to give more room (and hope I don't miss right lol)

LOL that's what I do too but every now and then I'll slice the ball which pretty much ruins a hole

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, badbeatj said:

LOL that's what I do too but every now and then I'll slice the ball which pretty much ruins a hole

Oh I get it.  Took a long time to finally get to the point where my swing rarely produced any balls to the right.  It's crazy how much you can improve your score by just having a one-way miss, then recognizing it and playing for it.  I can hit huge ugly hooks sometimes, but oftentimes a little game planning keeps them from really hurting me.

[SEMI_Duffer]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

A hook is only a bigger draw.

That was my understanding.

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can hit a push-hook, a straight-hook, or a pull-hook.

A straight draw/hook I understand goes "inside" (left for righties, right for lefties) straight off the face of the club.  (Due to closed face?)

The other kind of draw/hook, where the ball gradually (FSVO "gradually") turns in, is caused by an in-to-out club path imparting spin.  Would that be a "push" or a "pull," and what's the third type?

[iacas]

6 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

That was my understanding.

A straight draw/hook I understand goes "inside" (left for righties, right for lefties) straight off the face of the club.  (Due to closed face?)

The other kind of draw/hook, where the ball gradually (FSVO "gradually") turns in, is caused by an in-to-out club path imparting spin.  Would that be a "push" or a "pull," and what's the third type?

For the ball to hook the clubface is closed to the path.

Assuming some other things not involving gear effect (a toe hook can look like a push draw even with a "square" or "closed" face)… and for righties:

• A push-draw/hook is hit with a face right of the target and the path right of that.
• A straight-draw/hook is hit with the face "square" to the target and the path right of that.
• A pull-draw/hook is hit with the face left of the target and the path right of that.

The path can slightly influence the start line. A face at -1° (1° left of the target line) and a path 5° out will start close to 0 to 1° at/right of the target (assuming center contact).

[RayG]

I find that there are 4 levels. You have the "Baby Draw", the "Draw", the "Pull Hook" and lastly, the "FORE LEFT!!!" 

[badbeatj]

11 minutes ago, RayG said:

I find that there are 4 levels. You have the "Baby Draw", the "Draw", the "Pull Hook" and lastly, the "FORE LEFT!!!" 

So a baby draw. What does that look like in terms of side spin? 

[RayG]

7 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

So a baby draw. What does that look like in terms of side spin? 

No clue... but it's the one everyone wants.  

[saevel25]

41 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

So a baby draw. What does that look like in terms of side spin? 

No such thing as side spin. The ball spins on an axis. That axis gets tilted and the ball curves. 

[badbeatj]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

No such thing as side spin. The ball spins on an axis. That axis gets tilted and the ball curves. 

I've read that before as well but some guy has also shown a mathematical formula for calculating side spin? 

Correct or not, I think some of the launch monitors show / report side spin hence we look at those numbers. 

For example, if my drive is anywhere 100-300 rpm side spin, I'm pretty happy because the ball shape that normally takes place is a small curve. 

 

 

[iacas]

You can figure out "side spin" by vectorizing the spin axis, but the better way to look at this is the "spin axis," not the "side spin." "Side spin" on a 9I is very different than the same amount of "side spin" on a driver (and much more difficult to generate).

[Pretzel]

The difference between a draw and a hook is purely a matter of personal distinction, kind of like how the difference between a good round and a bad round changes from golfer to golfer.

My personal opinion is a mix of "too much curve" and "whether or not you can control it" - to me a hook is just a shot that curves much further left than you intended it to. If I am trying to hit a draw and it curves much more than I wanted, I hooked the shot because it curved left much further than intended. If I am trying to hit a fade and end up drawing the ball, I hooked it because it curved much further left than intended. I can hit a 40 yard draw, as long as I am trying to curve the ball 40 yards. A small miss is what it is, a small miss, but a big miss due to shot curvature (not starting the ball on the wrong line) is a hook or slice depending on if there was too much curve to the right or the left.

To properly understand shot shapes, it helps to break things down into the two basic components:

1. Starting line - the initial direction the ball is traveling.
2. Curvature - the direction the ball curves in the air.

A shot is described as a combination of (pull - neutral/straight - push) and (draw - straight - fade) when talking about the starting line and the curvature. You can have a pull draw, a straight/neutral draw, or a push draw for example.

The starting line is primarily determined based on the club face angle, the swing path has a very small (<10% IIRC, or even <5%) influence on the starting line of the golf ball. The golf ball starts moving in the direction you point the club. A positive club face angle points to the right of the target at impact (open face for right-handed golfers) and will start the ball off to the right, a negative club face angle points to the left of the target at impact (closed face for right-handed golfers) and will start the ball off to the left.

Your swing path also has a positive or negative angle with the same definitions, positive is to the right of the target at impact (in-to-out for right-handed golfers) and negative is to the left of the target at impact (out-to-in for right-handed golfers). The curvature of a shot is determined based on the difference between club face angle and swing path angle. If club face angle minus swing path angle is positive, then the club face is pointed further right than the swing path and the ball will curve to the right. If club face angle minus swing path angle is negative, then the club face is pointed further left than the swing path and the ball will curve to the left.

This means that a straight draw, a straight shot, and a straight fade are all hit with a square (0*) clubface angle. A straight draw has a positive swing path angle, a straight shot has a 0* face and swing path angle, and a straight fade has a negative swing path angle. Similarly a pull draw, straight shot, and push fade are all hit with a square (0*) swing path angle, just with a closed, square, or open club face angle.

[saevel25]

15 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

The difference between a draw and a hook is purely a matter of personal distinction, kind of like how the difference between a good round and a bad round changes from golfer to golfer.

I might be willing to say draw versus over draw rather than hook. To me, something that curves sharply to the eye is a hook. If it the difference between the straight push and the hook is the width of a normal fairway, it is too much curve. 

 

[badbeatj]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I might be willing to say draw versus over draw rather than hook. To me, something that curves sharply to the eye is a hook. If it the difference between the straight push and the hook is the width of a normal fairway, it is too much curve. 

 

I'm trying to get to a point where maximum curve of draw/hook is 30 yards right to left. This allows me to aim at right edge of fairway 285 yds down and hit a normal draw shot and expect to be on the fairway or at worst, left rough. 

Ideally it's only curving 10-15 yards max but it's hard to be that precise...