Free Lift From Swale

[Ruler]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Do you see any rocks? 🙂 I don't.

Play it as it lies.

The rocks need not be visible.

On order to made a correct judgement one needs to be there and neither of us is.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Ruler

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Ruler said:

The rocks need not be visible.

Uhhhhh… play it as it lies.

It's pretty clearly not a penalty area.

[Darkfrog]

In the example from my course (not OP), it’s not a french drain - but does divert water to a catch basin at a low point. Played in an atmospheric river storm this morning and this is what they look like when it’s raining (today was insane rain, not normally this bad).

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Darkfrog said:

In the example from my course (not OP), it’s not a french drain - but does divert water to a catch basin at a low point. Played in an atmospheric river storm this morning and this is what they look like when it’s raining (today was insane rain, not normally this bad).

Yeah, so… temporary water relief.

Not a PA. (Almost certainly) Not an IO.

[Rulesman]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Yeah, so… temporary water relief.

Not a PA. (Almost certainly) Not an IO.

We agree on this one 😀

[GRQs]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:20 AM, Darkfrog said:

This is what the channels look like on my course (not a great angle but it shows the concept):

That looks like normal fairway with some irregularity of surface. Play it as it lies. Potentially this could be seen as a surface drainage ditch, even without water this would be considered a penalty area. If I was on the Committee I wouldn't declare it as a penalty area, nor GUR.

[Ruler]

10 hours ago, GRQs said:

That looks like normal fairway with some irregularity of surface. Play it as it lies. Potentially this could be seen as a surface drainage ditch, even without water this would be considered a penalty area. If I was on the Committee I wouldn't declare it as a penalty area, nor GUR.

I must say this is an intriguing issue. On the other hand the Definition of a Penalty Area is very clear and on the other hand any undulation on a fairway built to direct water could be regarded as a PA based on the Definition. So, the question arises: where to draw the line?

Any ideas / guidelines / experiences on the matter? Or is the Definition too strict..?

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Ruler said:

I must say this is an intriguing issue. On the other hand the Definition of a Penalty Area is very clear and on the other hand any undulation on a fairway built to direct water could be regarded as a PA based on the Definition. So, the question arises: where to draw the line?

Any ideas / guidelines / experiences on the matter? Or is the Definition too strict..?

The definition of Penalty Area includes the areas:

"Any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the Committee), including a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open watercourse (even if not containing water)"

To me, those shallow grass-covered depressions just don't fit any of those terms.  The closest might be "surface drainage ditch", but to me that is a more sharply delineated area.  The catch-all term "other open watercourse" doesn't apply either, at least the way I read the words.  I think the definition is OK the way it is.

[Ruler]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The definition of Penalty Area includes the areas:

"Any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the Committee), including a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open watercourse (even if not containing water)"

To me, those shallow grass-covered depressions just don't fit any of those terms.  The closest might be "surface drainage ditch", but to me that is a more sharply delineated area.  The catch-all term "other open watercourse" doesn't apply either, at least the way I read the words.  I think the definition is OK the way it is.

Dave, how would you define a ditch? How deep / wide / long must it be to be a ditch and not a depression? Must it not be grass-covered? Something else?

The term 'other open watercourse' gives lots of latitude IMO...

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, Ruler said:

Dave, how would you define a ditch? How deep / wide / long must it be to be a ditch and not a depression? Must it not be grass-covered? Something else?

The term 'other open watercourse' gives lots of latitude IMO...

Here's the first definition I found online:

"a long narrow excavation dug in the earth (as for drainage)"

This shallow and moderately wide (in comparison to the depth) depression doesn't fit, in my mind.  I agree that "open watercourse" gives lots of latitude, but I don't believe its intended to include every depression of any kind that holds or carries water in a heavy storm.  To me, unmarked areas are Penalty Areas only when they clearly fit one of the definitions.  Borderline areas, depressions like in the photo we've been looking at, should be considered Penalty Areas only when a Committee chooses to define them as such.

[Ruler]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's the first definition I found online:

"a long narrow excavation dug in the earth (as for drainage)"

This shallow and moderately wide (in comparison to the depth) depression doesn't fit, in my mind.  I agree that "open watercourse" gives lots of latitude, but 1) I don't believe its intended to include every depression of any kind that holds or carries water in a heavy storm.  To me, unmarked areas are Penalty Areas only when they clearly fit one of the definitions.  Borderline areas, depressions like in the photo we've been looking at, 2) should be considered Penalty Areas only when a Committee chooses to define them as such.

1) I agree but I also think it should be up to the course designer to very carefully think through which depressions are for so called everyday use and which are not. Heavy storm is an extreme example and I would not use a lot of effort to deal with cases such as that but would rather put the focus on depressions where water is frequently present and that fulfil the Definition with regard to collecting and directing water.

2) Now that is rather self-evident, don't you think? It is the criteria what I am after here. This is one of those issues in golf that have no B&W solution and that is why I took it up as it is good to gather many different opinions and I believe that is why people like You and me bother to spend our time on forums like this. Or what do you think?

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Ruler said:

It is the criteria what I am after here.

For more guidance I'd look to the Committee Procedures, specifically at 2C which concerns marking Penalty Areas for General Play.  There's still some judgement involved, and there always will be.  

[sjduffers]

A French drain is not a surface ditch: the drainage is via a pipe, buried underground, with weeping material to capture the water and direct it into the pipe, not simply using a depression (the surface ditch) and its slope and gravity to capture and eject water.

Conversely, a ditch is excavated and forms a hole, much more than a depression, which can indeed become full of water and meets the intent of a penalty area (water hazard), whether it is dry or full of water.

A French drain is neither a ditch (permanently exposed hole, whether containing water or not), nor a surface ditch (a mere depression). It is a constructed device which normally does not interfere with play (it shows just as a small depression), but can become obstructive when its top soil is disturbed and reveals the rocks making up its construction: then it qualifies as an immovable obstruction (like a cart path).

Edited October 27, 2021 by sjduffers