Old Blade vs New Blade

[mohearn]

22 hours ago, billchao said:

Epoxy has improved over the years which allows for irons to have smaller hosels. 

Never would have crossed my mind.  Interesting actually.

[billchao]

Just now, mohearn said:

Never would have crossed my mind.  Interesting actually.

Yea, it’s part of why older clubs have such long hosels. Some old clubs actually have a pin that goes through the shaft to help keep it in place.

[Thomasredstone]

Ok...quick question re new hogans I've just tried...I received a 7 iron Icon and a 7 PTX Pro...finding the icon is much like my 88' apex blades (not surprising as the icon's are more traditional blade in nature) but the PTX-P has some forgiveness...when I hit the PTX's well they seem to go to the moon...very high trajectory...MUCH higher than my 88's. My question is...is this normal for a forgiveness laden blade or is it unusual? Guess the best way to find out is hit like clubs from other vendors...may give that a go sometime this week.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Thomasredstone said:

My question is...is this normal for a forgiveness laden blade or is it unusual? Guess the best way to find out is hit like clubs from other vendors...may give that a go sometime this week.

Lots of things go into that. 

1. Clubbed design (C.G. Location, Offset, etc...)
2. Club length
3. Golf shaft choice
4. Your golf swing in conjunction with all those factors. 

 

 

[billchao]

11 hours ago, Thomasredstone said:

Ok...quick question re new hogans I've just tried...I received a 7 iron Icon and a 7 PTX Pro...finding the icon is much like my 88' apex blades (not surprising as the icon's are more traditional blade in nature) but the PTX-P has some forgiveness...when I hit the PTX's well they seem to go to the moon...very high trajectory...MUCH higher than my 88's. My question is...is this normal for a forgiveness laden blade or is it unusual? Guess the best way to find out is hit like clubs from other vendors...may give that a go sometime this week.

As @saevel25 mentioned, the club design is different. The PTX irons are cavity-backs so the CoG will be lower and farther back than a true blade.

[AirForceBrat]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:45 AM, iacas said:

Untrue.

Sorry, but technology has advanced, even for musclebacks.

Yes it has, but perhaps the difference in new blades vs old blades is more design philosophy?? I'm still playing a set of Hogan Apex Plus, maybe not that well?? but I enjoy them, and to be honest I'm very happy with them...

[AirForceBrat]

On 5/2/2022 at 1:21 PM, iacas said:

Metallurgy is better now. Tolerances are better now. Grooves are better now. We understand how to move weight around more now, and we have multi-material blades now.

Forging is just the process by which the clubs are made. It's marketing hype to say that the "far east" method of forging is somehow superior - if I built a blade for you that was cast, and told you it was forged… you wouldn't know any different.

All facts.

:cough:

How a club feels (assuming the same contact, speed, shaft, actual kind of metal, etc.) is almost entirely a function of the shape of the club. You can forge a club or cast it, and if it's identical… it's going to feel identical.

"Grain flow forging" (etc.) is marketing.

Actually "Grain flow forging" as I recall is Mizuno marketing, but they are indeed forged and they do have a grain structure, so it's good marketing..  You might indeed replicate the appearance of a forging with a casting?? and you might replicate the performance of a forging with a casting? but a 1025 steel forging has properties that your casting will NOT, simple physics.

So forging is a process, casting is another process, it really depends on what properties you wish the end product to have.  But if you wanted a new blade? it will likely be a forging, just like your old blade, and will it play better? or will it just play different?

[iacas]

15 hours ago, AirForceBrat said:

but a 1025 steel forging has properties that your casting will NOT, simple physics.

My point is that those properties are the type (and are so small) that nobody would ever really detect or feel or notice.

Casting has gotten significantly better since the 70s or whatever.

And like 90% of feel is sound.

[Thomasredstone]

Ok...have another semi-related question for the group...I got fitted for some mizuno's a month or so back but what I noticed  then and with the hogans I rented was that the newer irons were noticeably lighter than my clubs...I think they were around D1-2. When I checked my clubs they ranged from D4-8...as I mentioned in an earlier entry I have only used them for the past 34 years. When trying out the new clubs I noticed I had serious timing issues...the head seemed to come through much quicker/sooner than what I'm used to.

So my question is should I attempt to pick a shaft for the new clubs that might replicate the 88' Apex 4 shafts I've been using...in hopes of getting my timing back in line? Or will it be the case that I remember back in the day where we would buy irons that we were not necessarily fit for and spend the next 3-4 months or so adjusting one's swing to fit the clubs?

 

[boogielicious]

5 hours ago, Thomasredstone said:

Ok...have another semi-related question for the group...I got fitted for some mizuno's a month or so back but what I noticed  then and with the hogans I rented was that the newer irons were noticeably lighter than my clubs...I think they were around D1-2. When I checked my clubs they ranged from D4-8...as I mentioned in an earlier entry I have only used them for the past 34 years. When trying out the new clubs I noticed I had serious timing issues...the head seemed to come through much quicker/sooner than what I'm used to.

So my question is should I attempt to pick a shaft for the new clubs that might replicate the 88' Apex 4 shafts I've been using...in hopes of getting my timing back in line? Or will it be the case that I remember back in the day where we would buy irons that we were not necessarily fit for and spend the next 3-4 months or so adjusting one's swing to fit the clubs?

 

There are two metrics here, shaft weight and swing weight. They are related, but not the same thing. Your clubs most likely have a shaft in the 130g range, which was typical at the time. This is equivalent to True Temper Dynamic Gold S300. Shaft weight added to the head weight is the static weight of the club.

Swing weight is a balance measure and is related to how heavy the head feels during the swing. It is measured by balancing the club at a pivot point 14” from the butt end using a counterweight. So it is measuring the weight distribution of the entire club around that point. D4-D8 is pretty high. D3 is typical for irons.

You can take a lighter shaft and still make a higher swing weight by adding some weight to the head end. This is done with lead tape or lead/brass inserts in the shaft tip with standard heads. Woods and some irons actually have a weight insert that can be changed. Shaft makers can also modify the weight distribution of the shaft itself moving weight up or down to counter balance.

So to really answer your question, if you like the higher swing weight, it can be adjusted to any shaft. A club with a lighter shaft will always feel lighter to you at set up because it can be anywhere from 10-40 grams lighter than a 130g shaft. Example TT XP95 stiff shafts will be 35g lighter than TT Dynamic Gold. But the swing weight during the swing can be made to replicate your older shafts by adjustment. Most of us can’t tell the difference between D0 and D4, but can definitely feel 5g difference is static weight.

Your best bet is to work with a good fitter to select a shaft that performs and feels best to you. They should know that you’ve been playing heavier shafts with a high swing weight. That being said, a standard swing weight of D3 should feel okay to you after a few sessions. For me, it was more about the overall weight. I was fitted into really light shafts in 2010, Nippon 950GH (95g). I was new to golf at the time. I gradually moved back towards a heavier shaft because I felt more control over the swing. I play 120g shafts now with no loss in distance.

Sorry for the long winded explanation. 

[Thomasredstone]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

There are two metrics here, shaft weight and swing weight. They are related, but not the same thing. Your clubs most likely have a shaft in the 130g range, which was typical at the time. This is equivalent to True Temper Dynamic Gold S300. Shaft weight added to the head weight is the static weight of the club.

Swing weight is a balance measure and is related to how heavy the head feels during the swing. It is measured by balancing the club at a pivot point 14” from the butt end using a counterweight. So it is measuring the weight distribution of the entire club around that point. D4-D8 is pretty high. D3 is typical for irons.

You can take a lighter shaft and still make a higher swing weight by adding some weight to the head end. This is done with lead tape or lead/brass inserts in the shaft tip with standard heads. Woods and some irons actually have a weight insert that can be changed. Shaft makers can also modify the weight distribution of the shaft itself moving weight up or down to counter balance.

So to really answer your question, if you like the higher swing weight, it can be adjusted to any shaft. A club with a lighter shaft will always feel lighter to you at set up because it can be anywhere from 10-40 grams lighter than a 130g shaft. Example TT XP95 stiff shafts will be 35g lighter than TT Dynamic Gold. But the swing weight during the swing can be made to replicate your older shafts by adjustment. Most of us can’t tell the difference between D0 and D4, but can definitely feel 5g difference is static weight.

Your best bet is to work with a good fitter to select a shaft that performs and feels best to you. They should know that you’ve been playing heavier shafts with a high swing weight. That being said, a standard swing weight of D3 should feel okay to you after a few sessions. For me, it was more about the overall weight. I was fitted into really light shafts in 2010, Nippon 950GH (95g). I was new to golf at the time. I gradually moved back towards a heavier shaft because I felt more control over the swing. I play 120g shafts now with no loss in distance.

Sorry for the long winded explanation. 

Thank you for the insightful explanation...very helpful. I tend to be a tinker-er and, for good and bad, golf offers a fun platform for that...I have played around with lead tape on my drivers (added so much to one it slowed my club head speed down 😕) and I added an inch to my irons a while back (cant remember if my swing weight measurements were done before or after) thinking "thats the ticket" but I'm now choking down and inch...thinking of going to 1/2" over now. Kinda like swing thoughts in a way...I decided to write down swing thoughts I've used recently...must have been at least 20+...sadly! When I finally do hit the course I wonder what swing will it be today.

Thanks again

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, Thomasredstone said:

Thank you for the insightful explanation...very helpful. I tend to be a tinker-er and, for good and bad, golf offers a fun platform for that...I have played around with lead tape on my drivers (added so much to one it slowed my club head speed down 😕) and I added an inch to my irons a while back (cant remember if my swing weight measurements were done before or after) thinking "thats the ticket" but I'm now choking down and inch...thinking of going to 1/2" over now. Kinda like swing thoughts in a way...I decided to write down swing thoughts I've used recently...must have been at least 20+...sadly! When I finally do hit the course I wonder what swing will it be today.

Thanks again

If you added length, that will increase swing weight too.