Water in Bunker

[anaveragehacker]

So this situation happened. A bunker in front of the green was full of water. My ball was underwater in the very back of the bunker furthest from the green. There was a small patch on the front upslope of the bunker nearest the green that theoretically could have been used to hit from if the ball was placed.  A drop would just roll back into the water. And this was the only part of the bunker you might be able to get a stance without standing in water. So my question is do you hit from that small front slope even though you would have to move the ball 6-7 closer to the pin? Or do you drop outside the bunker making sure you are no closer to the pin? I dropped in front of the bunker, so I had to chip over the whole bunker. Was this the right call? Also could I have moved it latterly outside the bunker, although this wouldn’t have made much difference as my ball was pretty much as far back in the bunker as you could be away from the hole.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

So this situation happened. A bunker in front of the green was full of water. My ball was underwater in the very back of the bunker furthest from the green. There was a small patch on the front upslope of the bunker nearest the green that theoretically could have been used to hit from if the ball was placed.  A drop would just roll back into the water. And this was the only part of the bunker you might be able to get a stance without standing in water. So my question is do you hit from that small front slope even though you would have to move the ball 6-7 closer to the pin? Or do you drop outside the bunker making sure you are no closer to the pin? I dropped in front of the bunker, so I had to chip over the whole bunker. Was this the right call? Also could I have moved it latterly outside the bunker, although this wouldn’t have made much difference as my ball was pretty much as far back in the bunker as you could be away from the hole.

Did you look up any Rules before posting here? What did you learn or find?

You don't get to drop (or place) closer to the hole.

16.1(c) deals with relief for Abnormal Course Conditions in bunkers. You're granted free relief for:

Quote

• The nearest point of complete relief and the relief area must be in the bunker.
• If there is no such nearest point of complete relief in the bunker, the player may still take this relief by using the point of maximum available relief in the bunker as the reference point.

Since you say the bunker was basically entirely full of water, you likely wouldn't get complete relief, so for free (no penalty strokes), you are entitled to "maximum available" relief. If there's a spot in the back of the bunker away from the hole where the water is the shallowest, then you can drop there.

If you don't like any of those options, you can take a penalty stroke and drop out of the bunker, behind it:

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(2) Penalty Relief: Playing from Outside Bunker (Back-on-the-Line Relief). For one penalty stroke, the player may drop the original ball or another ball (see Rule 14.3) outside that bunker, keeping the spot of the original ball between the hole and the spot where the ball is dropped (with no limit on how far back the ball may be dropped). The spot on the line where the ball first touches the ground when dropped creates a relief area that is one club-length in any direction from that point, but with these limits: 

You seem to have played from a wrong place (nearer to the hole) and thus likely should be penalized two strokes. It doesn't sound like a serious breach, at least.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

I dropped in front of the bunker, so I had to chip over the whole bunker.

 

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

You seem to have played from a wrong place (nearer to the hole) and thus likely should be penalized two strokes. It doesn't sound like a serious breach, at least

If he had to hit over the bunker, I'm guessing he was further from the hole, although "in front of" implies the opposite.  If that's right, that may have been the right spot for penalty relief, a single PS.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If he had to hit over the bunker, I'm guessing he was further from the hole, although "in front of" implies the opposite.  If that's right, that may have been the right spot for penalty relief, a single PS.

Yeah, I think I misread that part. I read "in front of" and kinda skipped the rest.

[anaveragehacker]

Maybe I didn’t explain this properly. Back and front can be confusing. 
There was no place in the bunker that didn’t have 2-3 inches of rain water in it, except for a small spot on the slope nearest the pin. If I had dropped there I would be moving 6-7 feet closer to the hole. Since my ball was just inside the bunker, farthest side from the hole, I dropped one club length backward, which brought me out of the bunker. I could not have hit from that deep of water. Are you saying I would have had to take a penalty stroke due to rain water? 

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

Are you saying I would have had to take a penalty stroke due to rain water? 

Yes. If you choose to take the ball out of the bunker instead of taking maximum available relief… it costs a stroke.

[anaveragehacker]

Ok, so I’m still confused here. Are you saying I could have used the only available Spot in the bunker even though it was 6-7 feet closer to the hole? 
 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

Ok, so I’m still confused here. Are you saying I could have used the only available Spot in the bunker even though it was 6-7 feet closer to the hole? 
 

No.

If there was a place no closer to the hole that afforded some relief, you could have dropped there.

If you were truly as far away from the hole as you could, in the "back" of the bunker, then… your options were basically to play it as it lies (lied? lay?) or take the penalty stroke and drop behind the bunker (keeping the point where the ball was between your drop and the hole).

[anaveragehacker]

I love golf, but we have some really dumb rules. Like this one, you get a penalty stroke because it rained. 

[iacas]

Just now, anaveragehacker said:

I love golf, but we have some really dumb rules. Like this one, you get a penalty stroke because it rained. 

Sorry, I will disagree. You got a penalty because you hit it somewhere and didn't want to play it from there.

Bunkers are not the general area. If you had hit it into temporary water in the general area, you'd be entitled to relief. You hit it into a hazard, a bunker.

Why should you get free relief when you hit it into a bunker? If someone else hit it into a different part of the bunker, without water, they'd not get a drop for free out of the bunker. Heck, it'd cost them two strokes if they didn't have an ACC and wanted to drop it out of the bunker.

[GolfLug]

7 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

I love golf, but we have some really dumb rules. Like this one, you get a penalty stroke because it rained. 

 

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sorry, I will disagree. You got a penalty because you hit it somewhere and didn't want to play it from there.

Bunkers are not the general area. If you had hit it into temporary water in the general area, you'd be entitled to relief. You hit it into a hazard, a bunker.

Why should you get free relief when you hit it into a bunker? If someone else hit it into a different part of the bunker, without water, they'd not get a drop for free out of the bunker. Heck, it'd cost them two strokes if they didn't have an ACC and wanted to drop it out of the bunker.

Could course committee have an MLR option to declare this bunker GUR? 

[anaveragehacker]

A sand trap is not supposed to have 3 inches of water in it. To me that’s temporary, casual water. Just like if your ball lands in a deep rain puddle in the middle of the fairway. I would have gladly hit out of any spot in that bunker. I understand that it’s a different rule. I just think it’s a dumb rule. You are penalized because it rained. 
Here’s what I think is the dumbest rule in golf, and all sports for that matter - professionals playing for millions of dollars in a tournament have to carry around a little pencil and scorecard to keep their score and sign it, when there are big scoreboards all over the course and on tv. Can you imagine the Knicks losing because they didn’t count their score correctly? Like I said, I love the game, but it’s time to move into the 21st century already. 

Edited May 5 by anaveragehacker

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

A sand trap is not supposed to have 3 inches of water in it. To me that’s temporary, casual water. Just like if your ball lands in a deep rain puddle in the middle of the fairway. I would have gladly hit out of any spot in that bunker. I understand that it’s a different rule. I just think it’s a dumb rule. You are penalized because it rained. 
Here’s what I think is the dumbest rule in golf, and all sports for that matter - professionals playing for millions of dollars in a tournament have to carry around a little pencil and scorecard to keep their score and sign it, when there are big scoreboards all over the course and on tv. Can you imagine the Knicks losing because they didn’t count their score correctly? Like I said, I love the game, but it’s time to move into the 21st century already. 

It's not dumb. It's dumb to randomly allow a free drop that provides an advantage you don't deserve.

And your committee had the option of determining it GUR. Did you talk to them?

Edited May 6 by GolfLug

[iacas]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Could course committee have an MLR option to declare this bunker GUR? 

They could have declared it GUR, sure.

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

A sand trap is not supposed to have 3 inches of water in it. To me that’s temporary, casual water.

It is. It's temporary water, and as I said before, an abnormal course condition (ACC). That's what rule 16 is about — ACCs.

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

Just like if your ball lands in a deep rain puddle in the middle of the fairway.

No, a bunker ≠ the middle of the fairway.

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

You are penalized because it rained.

You are penalized because you hit it into a bunker.

As for the rest… let's stick to the topic.

28 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

It's not dumb. It's dumb to randomly allow a free drop that provides an advantage you don't deserve.

Yep.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

A sand trap is not supposed to have 3 inches of water in it. To me that’s temporary, casual water. Just like if your ball lands in a deep rain puddle in the middle of the fairway.

No, hitting into a hazard that is supposed to be avoided and is designed to be penalizing is not the same as hitting it into the middle of the fairway.

 

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

You are penalized because it rained. 

You are penalized because you hit it into a hazard.

Based on your logic let's say you hit it into a red staked penalty area and you could normally play it but it's in temporary casual water from rain. Would you expect a free drop from there too??

[iacas]

Consider it another way: normally, it's a two-stroke penalty to move your ball out of a bunker (unplayable). The ACC reduces it to just one.

[anaveragehacker]

When you are penalized for hitting into the sand trap the penalty is having to hit it out of the sand, not out of three inches of water. A sand trap is not the same as a water hazard. A sand trap is not supposed to be under water. It is a unique condition caused  by weather and poor drainage. Most local leagues like ours allow the free drop in this type of situation, as long as there is no area in the bunker to legally drop. This is what I’m talking about, sometimes the official rules of golf don’t align with common sense. That’s why they are finally starting to change them. For example, when wind blows your ball off the green. That was a stupid rule. People being able to call the tv network to say they saw a players ball move. That was a stupid rule. I’m just saying, these are rules made up a long time ago, and it’s time to modernize them.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

When you are penalized for hitting into the sand trap the penalty is having to hit it out of the sand, not out of three inches of water.

You’ve yet to propose anything else.

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

A sand trap is not supposed to be under water.

And yet it was, and the rules tell you how to deal with it. Your question has been answered.

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

Most local leagues like ours allow the free drop in this type of situation, as long as there is no area in the bunker to legally drop. This is what I’m talking about, sometimes the official rules of golf don’t align with common sense.

The Committee can declare them GUR.

I disagree with your assessment of common sense. 😀

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

That’s why they are finally starting to change them.

And yet they didn’t really change this one.

Looks like this is about wrapped up?

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