Rule Change on Incorrect Scorecard

[Vinsk]

PGA Tour amending rule on incorrect scorecards (aka the Jordan Spieth rule), effective immediately

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Jun 18, 2024 | 8:31 AM

Good change. Ok, lemme have it die hards!

[saevel25]

If the PGA Tour wants to distance itself from the integrity of the Official Rules of Golf, then fine. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

If the PGA Tour wants to distance itself from the integrity of the Official Rules of Golf, then fine. 

You should read section 5A(5)a of the Committee Procedures.  The Committee has the authority to define when and how a scorecard has been "returned".  While the new method isn't specifically mentioned, the PGA Tour is definitely operating within the Rules in making this change.

[saevel25]

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You should read section 5A(5)a of the Committee Procedures.  The Committee has the authority to define when and how a scorecard has been "returned".  While the new method isn't specifically mentioned, the PGA Tour is definitely operating within the Rules in making this change.

The USGA only has two options that the committee can govern "when" a card is returned. 

Quote

The Committee should specify when the scorecard is considered returned. Options include:

Defining the scoring area and allowing a player to make alterations on his or her scorecard up until he or she has left that scoring area. This would mean that, even if the player has handed the scorecard to a referee or recorder, changes could still be made while the player is in the area.

Providing a box for the player to deposit the scorecard, in which case it is considered returned as soon as the player places it in the box. This approach might not give a player as much protection from returning an incorrect scorecard, but it may be the best method when limited resources are available or many players are finishing at the same time (for example, when there is a shotgun start).

Per the article...

Quote

The Tour announced a 15-minute window “to correct an error on his scorecard, even if he has left the scoring area.”

If a scorecard is validated in the scoring system and the player has left the scoring area, he may return to correct an error within 15 minutes of validation.

If a player has left the scoring area and an error is identified before the scorecard is validated in the scoring system, he may return to correct the error within 15 minutes of the error being identified by the scoring official.

If a player is in the scoring area when the 15 minutes expires, his scorecard is returned when he leaves the scoring area.

“In general, all players will have the ability to correct an error within this 15-minute period which may have previously resulted in disqualification. However, exceptions may apply when constraints within the competition limit a player’s correction time to less than 15 minutes, such as releasing tee times following the cut, starting a playoff, or the close of competition.”

The underline part violates the USGA options for returning scorecards. 

My initial response general on the time limit is incorrect, but the PGA Tour is still not going but he USGA guidance on having the score considered returned when the play leaves the scoring area. I amend my complaint to be this since I have found new evidence. 

[Rulesman]

18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The USGA only has two options that the committee can govern "when" a card is returned. 

 

You seem to have missed a critical word:

Options include:

Edited June 18 by Rulesman

[saevel25]

16 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

You seem to have missed a critical word:

Options include:

Yea, I can see that being read as, here are your options. 

Ive seen text like this, including but not limited to... To make sure people know that these are not the only options. 

If options include, implies here are just two examples, then fine. 

Edited June 18 by saevel25

[iacas]

I can't wait until the first Tour player finds an error 16:00 after returning his scorecard.

Look, the PGA Tour can do this, because they have the manpower and whatnot, but… I think this is a stupid over-reaction to Jordan Spieth having to poop. Particularly when he could have said "I'm sorry, I really have to go, I'll be right back and will sign my card then."

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yea, I can see that being read as, here are your options. 

Ive seen text like this, including but not limited to... To make sure people know that these are not the only options. 

If options include, implies here are just two examples, then fine. 

If the rule was intended to allow only the two options listed, it would have read something like "the committee may choose either...... or......".  To me the wording is clear, here are some of the acceptable options.

Its also important to see that the USGA and R&A were included in writing this, to make sure that the Tour policy would be acceptable under the Rules of Golf.  Like @iacas, I'm not sure that a single well-publicized screwup by a popular player is a good reason to change the procedures.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If the rule was intended to allow only the two options listed, it would have read something like "the committee may choose either...... or......".  To me the wording is clear, here are some of the acceptable options.

I’ll take your word for it regarding the USGA procedures. Your experience with the rules is greater than mine. I just know from experience that if the options are provided, then some people will consider them the only options available, and they will argue it because you didn’t specify that they could consider other options. We got this a decent amount with construction companies doing work for the City Of Dayton for traffic projects. If they can find some wiggle room to do change orders on the project they will then try to get as much money out of you as possible. They will argue that they did what was written. Maybe the word include implies that the options written are just examples, but I don’t feel like everyone would take it that way.

 

[pganapathy]

This rule change is so stupid.  It is not like the players have a time limit after finishing to submit their scorecard.  You can take a few minutes to verify your scorecard and then submit it.  IDIOTS

[iacas]

1 hour ago, pganapathy said:

This rule change is so stupid.  It is not like the players have a time limit after finishing to submit their scorecard.  You can take a few minutes to verify your scorecard and then submit it.  IDIOTS

But Jordan Spieth had to 💩

[Vinsk]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm sorry, I really have to go, I'll be right back and will sign my card then."

But under the old rule wouldn’t the committee have to say, ‘ I’m sorry but if you leave the scoring area with an unsigned card you’ll be disqualified’? Now they can say, ‘ok…you’ve got 15min.’

[GolfLug]

When does the 15 minute clock start? When they enter the 'scoring area' or when they turn in the scorecard? 

[Vinsk]

18 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

When does the 15 minute clock start? When they enter the 'scoring area' or when they turn in the scorecard? 

Within 15 minutes of the error being identified by the scoring official.

 

 

Edited June 19 by Vinsk

[saevel25]

@DaveP043, I just came across this working today, .  Just found it funny, I found an exact example of what I was talking about when reviewing a comment document from the New Jersey Transit Authority. 🤣

Quote

The Tour announced a 15-minute window “to correct an error on his scorecard, even if he has left the scoring area.”

• If a scorecard is validated in the scoring system and the player has left the scoring area, he may return to correct an error within 15 minutes of validation.
• If a player has left the scoring area and an error is identified before the scorecard is validated in the scoring system, he may return to correct the error within 15 minutes of the error being identified by the scoring official.
• If a player is in the scoring area when the 15 minutes expires, his scorecard is returned when he leaves the scoring area.

So, I assume the procedure normally is that the player goes in, sits at the table with their opponent and reviews scores, signs the card and leaves. Then a person there enters the score into the scoring system? Like, in Spieth's example, he assumed his opponent was keeping the correct score. Rushed in, signed the card, and left. Then did they review the card with his card and found the error? Who figured out he had a bogey on the par 3 that he signed for a par? Was it the scoring system that spit out and error because it keeps track of each hole? I am just curious because I do not know the details of how the PGA Tour handles this. 

So, I guess the new procedure could be Spieth rushes in, signs the card, go takes a crap. Gets notified his score was wrong. He has 15 minutes minus the time it took them to notify Spieth. Which it would be a hilarious scene if he wasn't even remotely done taking the crap and someone is talking to him from the other side of the stall. 🤣 The rule will be 15 minutes from error being identified. He rushes back, amends the card, probably initials it because that is common to do, and the score is fixed. 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

@DaveP043, I just came across this working today, .  Just found it funny, I found an exact example of what I was talking about when reviewing a comment document from the New Jersey Transit Authority. 🤣

So, I assume the procedure normally is that the player goes in, sits at the table with their opponent and reviews scores, signs the card and leaves. Then a person there enters the score into the scoring system? Like, in Spieth's example, he assumed his opponent was keeping the correct score. Rushed in, signed the card, and left. Then did they review the card with his card and found the error? Who figured out he had a bogey on the par 3 that he signed for a par? Was it the scoring system that spit out and error because it keeps track of each hole? I am just curious because I do not know the details of how the PGA Tour handles this. 

So, I guess the new procedure could be Spieth rushes in, signs the card, go takes a crap. Gets notified his score was wrong. He has 15 minutes minus the time it took them to notify Spieth. Which it would be a hilarious scene if he wasn't even remotely done taking the crap and someone is talking to him from the other side of the stall. 🤣 The rule will be 15 minutes from error being identified. He rushes back, amends the card, probably initials it because that is common to do, and the score is fixed. 

Like you, I don't know the procedure on the PGA Tour, but what you outline seems right.  I believe that the shotscope data which is collected on each player can provide some (unofficial) backup of the player's scores, so perhaps someone looked at the shotscope stuff and saw the discrepancy.  Also, the player's score for each hole is given somehow to the overall scoring system, that's where the up-to-the-minute scores we see on telecasts comes from, so that's another check.  Plus every player keeps their own score, as well as marks for another player, so he had his own records to check against his marker's (official) card.  There's really no excuse, he just screwed up.  

And I think you know, I'm an engineer but I work (past tense, actually, I retired this spring) for a small construction subcontractor.  I'm used to reading those specifications, parsing the language to find the differences between requirements and recommendations, between "must "and "may".  

[GolfLug]

Golf is the only sporting competition in which you could get DQed for failing 3rd grade math while dealing with nature... in 2024! 

This is an attempt to bring this issue to some level of relief. It's a step in the right direction. 

Edited June 19 by GolfLug

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

But under the old rule wouldn’t the committee have to say, ‘ I’m sorry but if you leave the scoring area with an unsigned card you’ll be disqualified’? Now they can say, ‘ok…you’ve got 15min.’

That's not true. He could have simply "not turned his card in" by saying "I have to shit, I'll be right back" and turned his card in when he got back.

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

When does the 15 minute clock start? When they enter the 'scoring area' or when they turn in the scorecard? 

Look at the picture I posted up above. There are multiple situations and @Vinsk only answered one of them. THey're bullet points in the image above:

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Like I said, I can't wait for the first pro to realize he goofed at 16:00.

49 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So, I assume the procedure normally is that the player goes in, sits at the table with their opponent and reviews scores, signs the card and leaves. Then a person there enters the score into the scoring system?

Yes.

And they don't "enter" it in, they validate it and make sure the holes are all what was listed. The scores are already in the "system."

49 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Like, in Spieth's example, he assumed his opponent was keeping the correct score. Rushed in, signed the card, and left.

Basically.

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I believe that the shotscope data

😀

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

There's really no excuse, he just screwed up.

And because it was Jordan we now have this convoluted unnecessary rule for the PGA Tour.

8 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Golf is the only sporting competition in which you could get DQed for failing 3rd grade math while dealing with nature... in 2024!

No math is required, Vishal. Just have to count your scores and write down the correct number. Pretty basic shit.

8 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

This is an attempt to bring this issue to some level of relief. It's a step in the right direction. 

I disagree.