Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[ET-Taylor]

  spitz20 said:

I used to hit blades when i was younger and played everyday...now i wouldnt even think about it :)

AP2s give you plenty of workability still though they aren't exactly hwat u would call SGI clubs

[luckyluke699]

  youngskip40 said:

52, 58, 68, 62, 33 (in order of most to least forgiving).

Errr I think you've got 68 and 62 the wrong way round there? Surely you mean 52, 58, 62, 68, 33 (though MP-68 is a newer update "equivalent" of the MP-33).

If you go to the european Mizuno site http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/irons/ and click on HCP, it gives you an idea of club "difficulty". As for whether to get blades, if you have a reasonable swing, or want to get one, there's no reason NOT to play them! They will highlight problems (instead of masking them) and although off centre hits may penalise you more, the dispersion rate of blades is MUCH less than cavities for correctly hit shots. And if you're still not sure, why not borrow a demo iron from a local shop (or even buy one cheaply of fleabay to try out for a little). I'd say go for it! I'm glad I did...

[youngskip40]

  luckyluke699 said:

Errr I think you've got 68 and 62 the wrong way round there? Surely you mean 52, 58, 62, 68, 33 (though MP-68 is a newer update "equivalent" of the MP-33).

Oops! You're right. For some reason I mixed up the 62 and the 67 in my head. If I corrected it and added the 67, I personally would rank them as 52, 58, 62, 68, 67, 33.

Good catch.

[2puttmike]

Thanks for the good thread Primate. I'm a newbie here. I tried a set of my friend's blades for a few rounds and really liked the sharp turf interaction. So I had him custom fit me with a set of clone blades. I'm 6.2" 225. Dynamic gold s300 shafts/Karakal xtac grips. He set the lofts for 3 degrees apart(not sure why). After 2 practice range sessions I feel a bit humbled, but I'm looking forward to playing several rounds with them so I have an Idea if... A) I need lie angle or loft adjusted. B) I think the heads are good quality. C) I can live with the vibration caused by my 15 HC when I miss-hit...I love the simple sharp edged look of the blades so that's the main reason I will probably stick with blades in general.

[iacas]

An interesting article:

http://3jack.blogspot.com/2010/02/bl...ent-irons.html

The comments are interesting as well.

[pxc]

  iacas said:

An interesting article:

That was a good read. I've never wanted to play big shovelheaded clubs, but I've been told I "should", so reading something like that is encouraging. I actually hit my current midsized-head clubs better than my old SGI clubs.

[2puttmike]

Update to above. Primate, I too am using blades to attempt to improve my game, in addition to what I mentioned before about the look and feel at address. So far so good. I've played another round since I got my new set of blades. I've also had a few more range sessions. I found that I need to compact my swing for now and play the ball more toward the heel of the face. When well struck, it's a much better feel than my cavity backs.

[titaniummd]

  youngskip40 said:

Oops! You're right. For some reason I mixed up the 62 and the 67 in my head. If I corrected it and added the 67, I personally would rank them as 52, 58, 62, 68, 67, 33.

I opted for the Musclebacks for the same reason, as the OP. I actually went from Super Game Improvement to Player's Clubs (the MX-900 was replaced with the MP-33s). Once I begin to improve, if ever, I may consider tossing the hybrids for my 3 and 4 irons.

[basfrk11]

in my opinion blades have gotten just about as forgiving as muscle backs

[ks8829]

I love my blades! I can't image playing anything else, simple as that! I stayed away because what everyone says, that only the pros use them and sometimes even the pros don't use them. well, I fell into them because the price was right and I felt I had nothing to lose. The best clubs, that I have ever used. I have played them for over 4 years and played my best golf with them. They are alot easier to hit then everyone says. I encourage everyone to at least try them once. I use the Mizuno MP33 and they feel buttery and well balanced.

[Shanks A Million]

Ah, high or low handicap, a blade will still send a severely off center hit flying about 90° to the side. A well struck shot won't be too different, but many people are simply better off with cavities, including most of the PGA tour. If they mostly prefer cavities, then why should we play blades? Granted, you can use whatever you want, but even a small amount of perimeter weighting is going to help you astronomically on off center hits. True blades (like the ones I have from 8-LW) must be struck center.



A muscle back, or a club that has some form of weight redistribution is a much better choice.



The blade is always going to require a dead center hit. Even I find that on occasion, I hit a screamer that rockets off to the right when I hit the toe of my blades. The muscleback is not so unforgiving. Consider that.

[sean_miller]

  Shanks A Million said:

Ah, high or low handicap, a blade will still send a severely off center hit flying about 90° to the side. A well struck shot won't be too different, but many people are simply better off with cavities, including most of the PGA tour. If they mostly prefer cavities, then why should we play blades? Granted, you can use whatever you want, but even a small amount of perimeter weighting is going to help you astronomically on off center hits. True blades (like the ones I have from 8-LW) must be struck center.

You posted two pics. One looks like what I would condider a typical muscleback and the other one - I'm not sure what I'd call it. It reminds me of the same concept as the wing back MacGregor MTs from the 1950s (copied a few times over, like blades by Vega for example).

I'd say that very few blades are true blades nowadays - they're mostly musclebacks - newer musclebacks (post 1980) are very easy to hit. With the right setup (loft, lie, shaft, grip, swing weight, grind) they can be very very easy to hit. Having said that, if I frequently played a wet or boggy course, I might toss a set of wide soled, higher bounce, SGI clubs in the trunk, just in case. What I picture when I think of a" true blade": I was pretty sure that my Apex PCs were a true blade - at least closer than any other irons that I play on a regular basis - but the more I look at them, they're definitely more like a muscle back: Edit - the rest of my PCs aren't quite this mint (I wish) - I picked up the 2-iron brand new a couple years after the rest of the set. You can't have a set of musclebacks without the butter knife!

[Shanks A Million]

Those TMs are musclebacks, that's their name, "Rac Muscleback, Forged." In my experience, a "blade" is a club with no weight redistribution, I don't think it matters if the whole back is flat or not. "Muscleback" refers to a club where the center of gravity is behind the ball, not below it. So, all blades are MBs, but not all MBs are blades?

I would call anything that's got some weight redistributed a "muscleback" instead of a blade, I.E.:




I do honestly think ego is one of the largest impedances to good scores in golf. Ego makes us want to play clubs that we cannot possibly score as well with, no matter how we try and rationalize it. Tour pros, who we could never match, who even the worst of have a handicap around +5, rarely play blades. Of the world's top 3 golfers, one plays blades, one plays MBs, and one plays Cavities. Those are the best three on the entire planet, and even they are split evenly.

The fact of the matter is, even a small cavity will forgive much more than the best blade on the market. We shouldn't kid ourselves and pretend that we're good enough to play clubs that even tour pros don't play. Don't let your ego get in the way.

[The Recreational Golfer]

When I bought my irons in 2003, it came down to Hogan Apex (blades) and Ping i3+ (cavity back). They both felt great and I hit good shots with each of them. I chose the Hogans because of their looks. They have never been hard for me to hit. I would do the same thing again if I had to--find out which irons I hit the best and go with the set that suits my eye.

[Blades4me]

  Shanks A Million said:

Those TMs are musclebacks, that's their name, "Rac Muscleback, Forged." In my experience, a "blade" is a club with no weight redistribution, I don't think it matters if the whole back is flat or not. "Muscleback" refers to a club where the center of gravity is behind the ball, not below it. So, all blades are MBs, but not all MBs are blades?

To a point I agree with you about ego, after that I think you make quite a stretch. During good weather my gamers are a old set of 1978 Wilson Staff Tour blades 1-pw and sometimes I'll play the 1i. Accordingly these babies, by todays logic and yours, should be impossible to hit, but I hit them just fine and I've reported rounds in the high 70's with them, usually in the low to mid 80's--that was last summer. I personally don't think there is that much difference between a players cb and a muscle back. I know that there is little difference between my mp 60 and 32's for me.

If someone has the fundamentals down its just a matter of desire. The biggest reason most pro's play cb's is b/c they are paid to--anyone who has spent any time in sports knows that the ppl that keep the sport going are the beginners and intermediates, so thats who the majority of the marketing is geared for. When I skiied I went from downhill skiies to telemark skiies. After a year and a half on telemark skiies I went back to my downhill skiies and wondered how I ever fell. When I go from my winter set of irons, MP 60 3-7 and MP 32 8-pw its a little bit of a stretch, but not that bad. I have to focus more and stay within my swing. Once I get that down I can start to open it up a little. If anything I've found that my muscle backs make me play within myself.

[sean_miller]

  Shanks A Million said:

The fact of the matter is, even a small cavity will forgive much more than the best blade on the market. We shouldn't kid ourselves and pretend that we're good enough to play clubs that even tour pros don't play. Don't let your ego get in the way.

I assume you meant the collective "your". Personally, if ego played any part in my golf, I'd be taking mulligans on every mishit, chalking up 6 foot gimmes, and putting a "+" in front of my internet handicap index (my inter-dex).

To suggest average blades players are kidding themselves, implies that a slightly lower average score - in the short term - is the only way to enjoy this game. I personally couldn't care less how much other golfers penalize themselves with their club choices - in the short or long term. Are we all teammates or something? Who cares if I fly the odd green because I'm not using cavity backs?

[James_Black]

My friend has an old set of Sam Snead blades 3,7,9 and a few ancient mizuno blades to fill the gaps.

Nicest clubs ever if you hit them well but I lost maybe 15-20 yards on shots off the toe.

Maybe technology has improved since the 1960's.

[Shanks A Million]

  Blades4me said:

If someone has the fundamentals down its just a matter of desire. The biggest reason most pro's play cb's is b/c they are paid to--anyone who has spent any time in sports knows that the ppl that keep the sport going are the beginners and intermediates, so thats who the majority of the marketing is geared for.

This is certainly not true. Each company makes a wide variety of designs, and the player may play whatever he wants to from those designs. Titleist, TaylorMade, Cobra, Nike, Callaway, Bridgestone, Mizuno, Adams, Wilson, and Cleveland all currently make blades. Only Ping and Srixon currently don't make blades, Ping never has.

Tiger, Phil, Furyk, these guys play blades. A good number of tour pros do indeed, play blades. But a larger portion don't. The point here is, that when one makes an honest assesment of their game, not too many prefer blades. I like blades only in the shorter clubs, so I use them from LW-8. I'm also not actually, honestly going to say that I will never mishit a club, everyone does. For that reason, I prefer a club with some forgiveness.