Short Holes

[iacas]

Think of the holes that have given pros trouble this year: the short par 4 at Doral, the 10th at Riviera... a few others I'm forgetting. Even Tiger on some really long par 5s this year. All the holes where you can hit some kind of iron to lay up to wedge distance or go for it with a driver or 3W.

Ian McAndrew says he likes the 10th at Riviera and says:

This is a perfect hole at only 311 yards. So please explain to me why we need 7500 yard courses?

Here's my question: take the top five bombers out there (Tiger, Phil, Bubba, J.B., and Vijay perhaps) and make them play 20 times on a course with 18 300-400 yard holes (the 350+ yard holes would certainly be doglegs, the straight-line distance of which would be 350 or less).

The first ten times, you'd tell them they HAD to attempt to drive every green. The holes would be designed like the 10th at Riviera or the 16th at Doral, with trouble around the green and some tougher hole locations with sloped greens. The second ten times, they'd have to lay up every time and go in with a wedge or something. On a lucky day (or a day with a great short game and/or putting), I think going for the green would result in a lower score than the average of the "lay up/pitch it on" rounds. But on a bad day - a day where the ball buries under the lip or finds trees, water, or deep rough - the scores would be higher. In the end, I think the scores would actually be within about a stroke of each other. These short holes are the ultimate risk/reward type thing for today's pros, and I wish we had more of them. We don't need 510-yard par 4s to make golf interesting and in fact challenging for today's pros. Shortening some holes may be the better option (if they were designed to be played in such a fashion, that is - you can't just shorten a par 4 and call it a great test). So that's the question. Vote in the poll, then share your thoughts in a comment.

[iacas]

Tiger and Phil both bogeyed 16 last year while they would have probably both birdied or at least parred by laying up. These short holes in fact seem to favor the short hitters who have no such temptation to go for the green and play the "layup" every time.

[BruceH]

That's a good point Ian.

How many 2s get scored on those holes? I know I bagged a few playing TW2004 but how oftern do they get the ultimate reward for driving the green?

[sioutdoors]

the reason for legnth on some courses, is because they can bomb it with impunity because of their short game skills. if you are good around the greens then go for it otherwise lay up to a good yardadge and stick it close

[alexlax12]

I dont know about Bubba and JB, but Tiger, Vijay, and Phil's shortgames are just incredible, they would be getting up and down much more often from around the green for birdie, than they would with a wedge shot from a lay up posisiton.

[iacas]

I dont know about Bubba and JB, but Tiger, Vijay, and Phil's shortgames are just incredible, they would be getting up and down much more often from around the green for birdie, than they would with a wedge shot from a lay up posisiton.

I doubt it. They both

bogeyed the short one at Doral last year, for example, in the same round playing against each other. Their short games are good, but so are the wedge games of those who choose to lay up... including their own.

[NM Golf]

I think the scores would be comparable but slightly lower on the day they drive every hole. What would not be the same is the overall look of the scorecards. On the driver day you would see lots of birdies and an occasional eagle along with several bogeys. On the layup day there would be more pars less birdies and far less bogeys.

[mediaguru]

I think the potential "bad" results would far outweigh the good results of trying to drive the greens....

[iacas]

I think the potential "bad" results would far outweigh the good results of trying to drive the greens....

My home course has such a hole. You can see an image

here . It's a 295-yard uphill par 4. And by uphill I mean that it's more than a 6° slope. That doesn't sound like much slope, but do the math: over 300 yards (hypotenuse), that's over 100 feet in elevation. For awhile, they were considering doing the changes you see in the image there (along with some left-side tree removal not shown). It would have completely ruined the hole. I agree with Tony.

[golfchief]

It still goes back to drive for show and putt for dough, I for one one would like to see the holes shorter and add deep 8 foot bunkers like st. Andrews starting about 300 yds out, 30 yds of deep bunkers to get by would be great risk/reward shot for the big hitters.
The road their going down now soon the pros will carry a couple of drivers,a 7 iron,putter and the rest will be wedges. make them use all the clubs in the bag to get around 18 holes and see some real golf.

[neudi]

I personally believe that the scores woul,d be about the same b/c if they screw up on one hole, then the next hole they might eagle...i mean it is all relative.

[allin]

I think pros are all so good that when in contention and playing well that they see these as opprotunities to get that one or two stroke advantage that wins most tournements,. When not in contention they have less to lose and a chance to make up ground so tend to go for it anyway.