Semi - Blades AKA muscle cavities

[sungho_kr]

Why would you want a blade if:

1) the cavities are forged, and have the same aesthetics: samd look, weight, feel,

2) the cavities are more forgiving

3) they do everything a blade can do with room for error

Best of Both Worlds? No Brainer??? Answer PLZ

[joeTM]

Well, I own a few sets of CB irons. Last year I bought a set of Rac TP irons. There is no better feeling than hitting a good shot with blades. When you hit the ball on the sweet spot you feel like you have accomplished something. Conversely, when you hit any other spot on the club it can be a long day. I realized early this spring that those clubs are not meant for the weekend golfer and went out and bought a set of R7 XD's. The entire face of the club is a sweet spot and I'm hitting a club and 1/2 further than the TP's. Just my two cents!!

[iacas]

  sungho_kr said:

Why would you want a blade if:

You mean like the 735.CM?

[georgep]

If I played every day, I'd get some blades just for the feel. As it is, my MP-60s give me great feel with enough forgiveness to let me feel like I know what I'm doing.

[muskegman]

I want technology working for me. I play the 690.CB's which I consider a fairly blade-like club. They are low profile enough for me and have enough forgiveness and feel to keep me happy.

[sungho_kr]

  iacas said:

You mean like the 735.CM?

Yep, and the 690.cbs also,

[Old Tom]

I'm not sure how many of the pros are even playing blades these days. For a 15 handicapper that would be like golf suicide: I wouldn't even consider it.


BTW -

I did play a set of old Haig Ultra thin blades back in the 80s. Technology is your friend.

[NM Golf]

I recently purchased the Nike Pro Combo tour irons which are a progressive set like the Titleist 735.CM. The 3-4 irons are full cavities, the 5-7 are muscle cavities, and the 8-PW are blades. I really like the way they feel but I am good enough now to hit them. Five years and 10 handicap strokes ago I wasn't near good enough to have played these irons. And I also realize that there is no way I will ever be good enough to possibly need to play full blades. I mean if you go to a PGA tour event you will notice one thing, there are more cavity backs on tour than blades. If those guys play CB's then what in the heck are pompous 5 handicaps trying to prove by using blades. Other amateurs can do what they want but I am a firm believer that anyone below a PGA tour level of ability who is playing with blades is hurting their games and ability to score.

[iacas]

  NM Golf said:

Other amateurs can do what they want but I am a firm believer that anyone below a PGA tour level of ability who is playing with blades is hurting their games and ability to score.

I disagree. First off, a lot of PGA Tour players use musclebacks.

Second of all, the feel, control, and workability of a muscleback or blade far exceeds that of a cavity back, and that takes strokes off of my game. So, I think you're wrong.

[Rafcin]

losing strokes with MB clubs? NO WAY. With full control of your swing (I'd think that applies to most PGA players ) you'll gain in your game thanks to the feel and workability. Even if your swing is not as fine-tuned as the pro's - IMHO - you can gain an edge. I went back and forth between CB - Combo - MB - back to CB - back to MB. I want to KNOW if I don't hit the ball on the center of the clubface, as supposed to wonder - how the heck was I short with this shot? This is my primary reason for going back to MB. Workability comes with better swing, I can maybe "work it" correctly 3 out of 10, but contact feedback from a MB iron is priceless.

[NM Golf]

  iacas said:

I disagree. First off, a lot of PGA Tour players use musclebacks.

Well thats the great thing about our country we can disagree. As far as whether more tour pros play blades or CB I can't find a stat on that anywhere on the net so I have to go with what I have seen with my own two eyes. To me it seems that I saw a lot more CB's at the FBR than Blades. When I have seen equipment pictures from tournaments that also seems to be true. My point is I bet 99% of amateurs would benefit more from forgiveness than from the ability to work the ball. Plus all the pros seem to work the ball just fine with those CB. Only one of the top five players in the world plays a true MB Blade. The manufacturers all realize this trend too. Look at the clubs coming out, you're seeing progressive sets and muscle back/cavity designed forged irons. Like I've said playing a MB blade as an amateur to help you "work" the ball makes about as much sense to me as amateurs who only turns in their best scores to the handicap chairman to establish a falsely low index. It seems like an ego thing to me.

[iacas]

  NM Golf said:

My point is I bet 99% of amateurs would benefit more from forgiveness than from the ability to work the ball. Plus all the pros seem to work the ball just fine with those CB.

When was the last time you heard of a pro working the ball regularly and with fine control? Either you don't know what that means or you simply didn't play golf 10 years ago when we had balata balls, etc. There's a big difference between a 5-yard cut hit with a cavity-back and one hit with a muscleback.

  NM Golf said:

Only one of the top five players in the world plays a true MB Blade.

Tiger Woods, Ernie Els (695.MB, but technically no longer in the top 5), Retief Goosen, and Vijay Singh all play musclebacks. Only Phil Mickelson's Fusions aren't true true musclebacks, but that's Phil.

The manufacturers all realize this trend too. Look at the clubs coming out, you're seeing progressive sets and muscle back/cavity designed forged irons.[/QUOTE] Manufacturers cater to the majority. Or try to. Guess what? I ain't the majority...

  NM Golf said:

Like I've said playing a MB blade as an amateur to help you "work" the ball makes about as much sense to me as amateurs who only turns in their best scores to the handicap chairman to establish a falsely low index. It seems like an ego thing to me.

That's your opinion. But it's pretty much without a base. You're way off target if you think I have an ego problem with my handicap.

Oh, and to get at what I was saying before, according to the USGA I'm in the top 5% of golfers in the world anyway with a handicap index of less than 5, so... you're not going to convince me of much, especially when you go making up stuff. In the end, even if every pro in the world used cavity-back clubs, they're not me, and I'm entitled to make my own decisions. I know what I know to be true for my game. Rafi knows it for his. We've done our experimentation. We've arrived at our results.

[NCGolfer]

  NM Golf said:

..then what in the heck are pompous 5 handicaps trying to prove by using blades. Other amateurs can do what they want but I am a firm believer that anyone below a PGA tour level of ability who is playing with blades is hurting their games and ability to score.

I'm slightly offended. So my buddy who won two club championships with MP-33's is hurting his game and ability to score? I play with Mizuno Pro-II's which have a muscle bar in the cavity area and for the most part are blades in size and feel. I went from a cavity back (Titleist DCI) to these and saw a huge jump in, what Erik says, is playability and feel.

I've also hit the MP-32's, 33's and 37's...all of them felt much better off the face and gave immediate feedback. The only reason I haven't switched to a set is a financial set of constraints. In the end, it is up to the golfer and what they are comfortable with in their hands. I love the feel of blades because they actually help me get better...like Rafi is saying. If I'm hurting my game with these irons, then I hope I keep hurting it more with my next set of blades. If you want to need to identify a problem with us amateurs , I'm a firm believer that anyone below a PGA tour level of ability who spends more time on the range beating irons and woods rather than putting and chipping is hurting their game and ability to score.

[muskegman]

I'd like to echo what Dave Koster is saying in another way. I went from using a game improvement set of Titleist 804.OS irons to a "cavity back" Titleist 690.CB and saw improvement in my iron game immediately. There is something about these clubs that allows me to strike the ball better. Anyone who's seen me play, knows that I'm still learning, but I understand the logic that says a more blade-like club can help you score better.

[NM Golf]

Like I said you can do what you like. I am not here to convince anyone to do anything. I am just convinced that full blades are not made for anybody other than the very best ball strikers. I agree with you on the difference between forged and cast. My new forged irons feel much more solid. Here is where we differ maybe. Erik, your TM rac TP I don't consider that a blade. Do you? The TaylorMade description I read calls them a muscle cavity. I have hit them and they are really nice, but I think they are a lot easier to hit than a full blade. Vijay and Tiger play true blades so I stand corrected, Goosen plays a muscle cavity like Erik's, and Furyk and Mickelson play forged cavities. Whatever. Muscle cavities which my own 5-7 irons are have the feel and workability of blades with a little more forgiveness of a cavity. My 8-pw are full blades but with enough loft that they are easier to hit. To me a blade has no cavity on the back at all. Any little bit of cavity makes them easier to hit so more playable like a CB. Don't get all upset, I am not attacking the amateur blade players of the world. You must just be better ball strikers than I am cause I know I certainly can't hit them.

[Rafcin]

is somebody getting upset? not on TST, we're all friends here
I think Dave nailed (by paraphrasing my post) - by using "unforgiving" irons with a lot of feedback it forces you to improve. Without it you'll simply not know, that something's wrong. I went through it with the LT2 set from TM. That "feel cartridge" in the back made me think, everything was fine... when it wasn't. Blades will tell you, you can't hide - you will HAVE to improve, or sell them on eBay
The choice is simple - if you want to develop a perfect swing - play with full-feedback clubs. if you want to score "decent" and don't worry about improving much - X-18's are your sticks

[Rafcin]

  NCGolfer said:

...MP-33's is hurting his game and ability to score? I play with Mizuno Pro-II's which have a muscle bar in the cavity area and for the most part are blades in size and feel....

Dave, NM got you on one thing - I noticed your (still very impressive!) handicap index lost a little bit...

ok, just teasing

[iacas]

  NM Golf said:

Erik, your TM rac TP I don't consider that a blade. Do you? The TaylorMade description I read calls them a muscle cavity.

They have "feel pockets" but they're about as muscleback as musclebacks get these days. I've hit them side by side with the Titleist 680s and 695.MBs and 690.MB and 670s and they're about identical.

They're also called the "RAC MB TP" and the MB still stands for "muscleback." "MB == blade" in my book. If you go any deeper into it than that you're really splitting hairs. Incidentally, I know a lot of people, come to think of it, who have improved as Jeff has by hitting better, more blade-like irons than the game-improvement stuff they were hitting. So anyway... it's safe to say we know which side you're on and which side I'm on. I'll leave it there.