Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[iacas]

First, I'm glad to see some longer replies. Then, I wanted to comment on a few of them...

I also believe that people overlook how good Women's professional player's short game's tend to be. They are incredible chippers and pitchers, and also great putters...at times I tend to think better than some men on the PGA Tour!

I'm not overlooking it at all - I think that in comparison to the men, their short games are terrible. Putting, chipping, bunker play - everything. Down and out terrible. I'm not sure how many PGA Tour and LPGA events you've been to to say that they're "better," but I'd put even the worst guy on the PGA Tour who has kept his card for a few years against the average LPGA player and bet he'd win a short game contest 9 out of 10 times.

I think that opinion's backed by a lot of people who have watched the gals - their short games aren't all there. And often they don't need to be, what with their untucked flags and slower greens.

I think a man with a "real" scratch handicap, competing against a LPGA member would have a good shot, while there probably isnt much of a distance gap from a scratch golfer to a LPGA pro (top pros avg like 270 i believe)

And the bottom ones hit their driver as far as I hit my hybrid...

But in tournament settings? I doubt it. These lady's can stick hybrids on the green from 220yrds out. They are Pro's for a reason, they practice hours upon hours. while the typical scratch golfer has a day job.

Two things:

They're hitting hybrids because they didn't hit the ball very far off the tee. And a lot of those hybrids are from 170, so you put the guy at 140 and he's gonna have a club in his hands he can stick pretty close too. Additionally, the guy DID get to scratch while having a day job, so I think with a full-time schedule to play on the LPGA he could even improve... but even if we kind of "cap" his improvement, he's still "scratch from the back tees of a pretty good golf course" (paraphrasing my earlier definition).

These chicks are no joke, they can play and in no way would a scratch male golfer be able to compete in their level... Sure we could place top40 because most (like others have said) the majority are playing Bogie golf.

I'm not sure what you meant by that. Who's "we"? Who's playing bogey golf?

Then pressure, holy crap that's a different game all in its self. While LPGA doesnt hold a crowd like PGA does I still cant imagine 1st tee with 200 people watching you.

I've always performed well in front of crowds of crowds, and I'm sure the scratch golfer has played in tournaments with crowds, too. US Am qualifying, US Open qualifying, state tournaments, club championships, etc. And those are in front of people he knows. I perform better in front of strangers.

But yeah, the psychological thing is a mystery. I don't think any of us can definitively say whether it'll help or hurt. I'm undecided myself, and maybe that's why I don't lean stronger in the direction of "keep his card."

But do I think we could compete with the lesser of the field? yes.

That's the question: does he keep his card or not. The question isn't "does he ever win." Heck no I think he never wins!

just like the best female golfer could compete with the lesser of the PGA (and has been proven, thanks anika)

I wouldn't say that's been proven. She chose a short course on purpose. Over the course of a season on all the courses I don't think she makes many cuts and loses her card.

Let's be honest here, there are some scratch players who, with the advantage of being on a short course, would start to feel uncomfortable at 7 or 8 under par. People who win golf tournaments are special, male or female, and a lot of the ladies have already won in college, in top amateur, and pro events. It might take a special type of scratch player to take advantage of the shorter courses.

To win, sure... and one heck of a hot streak. I don't think he'd be capable of a win if we capped his ability to within a reasonable limit. If the guy developed into a +2 or whatever from the men's tees as a reasonable course, maybe he'd pop up on some leaderboards. But the "scratch" guy, I don't think he gets to 7 or 8 under even with the 400-yard advantage. 4 or 5 on occasion, but over four rounds I bet he finishes about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way back in the list of those who made the cut.

In other words, a scratch from the tips would not fare nearly as well against ladies playing from their tees.

Not at all, agreed.

Don't forget that if he played the tour, he would be playing different courses that he has never played before.

Well, he'd get the same practice rounds the pros do, and they do okay. Some of 'em have played the course 10 years in a row, yeah, but I don't know how much of a gap exists between "play it six times a year for 10 years" and "just played it two or three times and have a pro yardage book" - can't be too much, can it?

Or are you saying that the guy's basically a 2.0 anywhere else, and he's only a scratch cuz he knows his home course? Maybe I didn't, but my intent was to set the guy up as a "legit" scratch golfer - one who can play to it not just at one home course.

I disagree with the claim that "pressure" is a non-issue. The players on tour are used to the tournament hoopla and the cameras and all the stuff that goes on at a tournament.

Have you been to an LPGA Tour event? Last one I went to I saw two photographers, and one of 'em looked like she was reporting for the local paper and had a camera and lens that ran about $2k combined. I've seen bigger crowds at state amateur tournaments... Most LPGA Tour events are happy to have a crowd one person deep. :)

Then again, maybe our guy is single, so any rounds he played with Natalie Gulbis or Anna Rawson or something would result in complete meltdowns. The last tournament I went to, btw: http://www.lpgascoring.com/18451/lea...aderboard.html Cut came at -2. Last place ended up at +1, but -4 would have gotten you T61. The golf course wasn't long, the greens weren't fast or slanted. You did have to be fairly straight, but again, I think a guy would be pretty straight hitting hybrids or 3W off the tee on the par-fours and two less irons into the greens. Some tees were back (like the first, but even the women hit irons off the first tee), but most were up a bit - and it's an old golf course that probably tops out at 6550 or so for member play. The listed yardage was only 6428. That course, that event, strikes me as a particularly "typical" event.

[TheNatural]

Playing at bulle rock often, and watching them on tv made me realize how much of a shorter course they play.

I was asked to play from the tips with a 4some and see the HI is a 22. The rest of the group is 9-15HI.

Im a long hitter when I connect so the tips didnt freak me out.

I have played the course from the whites which is where the women play from and any 4 HI player with the ability to hit driver 300 on every drive is going to have a huge advantage over the women. There are par 5's he will get on in two where women will layup. There are par 4's that he can drive to the hole where woman wouldnt dare attempt.

For Bulle Rock par 4's

1 Could be driven from the tee by a 300yard drive -ADV 4HI
4 DITTO ----ADV4HI
5 a monster uphill dogleg that can barely be reached in 2 from whites--ADV 4HI
6 NO ADV unless the 4HI can max out at 330yards from tee, then driving green again
9 Green Can be driven over lake from whites ADV 4HI
10 NO ADV
13 NO ADV
14 ADV 4 HI drivable green
16 ADV 4HI drivable green
18 No great advantage

Par 5
2 HUGE 4HI Advantage get on in 2. Every woman takes 3 or more.
8 HUGE 4HI adv get on in 2 with ease.
11 ADV 4HI can barely make it in 2 depending on wind. Woman would take 3-4 strokes.
15 ADV 4HI would eliminate the first fairway layup and be pitching 150.


I count 10 strokes advantage for a long driving 4HI over nearly any woman driving on tour at Bulle Rock. The big difference I think would be in the iron play, the better of the field would eat him up there. As far as putting, I would have to assume a 4HI has a decent putting game, enough to contend with women since his GIR will be much improved and distance from approach will be shortened immensely.

Par 3's is ADV woman by a stroke or two.

Nerves are a completely different story.

[Lemay427]

A 6500-6800 yard course for a normal male golfer is short IMO. Most of the tracks that the pros play and other high quality, tournament courses, are set up normally to play at least 7000 yards. So, I would say a scratch golfer at a harder track (7000yd, 74+ rating) would have a better shot at staying on the LPGA.

[TheNatural]

He keeps his card easy IMO. I think he also is a top 10.

[shades9323]

He keeps his card easy IMO. I think he also is a top 10.

He might keep his tour card, but he loses his man card!!!

[deronsizemore]

I think you're assessment is pretty spot on, iacas. I've discussed this on another site before and had a similar conclusion to yours (although no one else did). I agree that the top tier LPGA tour players would beat a scratch male golfer nine out of 10 times... if not 10 out of 10. But, as you've pointed out, after you get past those top tier golfers, the competition falls off steeply.

Of course Stina is correct in saying that the pressure would be a big issues especially if the scratch male golfer isn't used to playing in a tournament where they have to play so well or else go home with zero money. Also the pressure of playing in front of crowds (albeit smaller ones on the LPGA tour). While I agree with Stina, eventually the scratch male golfer would get accustomed too the additional pressure of playing for a paycheck and playing in front of a crowd. Plus, the scratch golfer assuming he's on the LPGA tour for any length of time would have access to the best club fitters, instructors, etc., which I think would only help him play that much better.

I don't see a scratch male golfer ever winning an LPGA tour event, but I believe that he wouldn't embarrass himself either and probably would keep his card.

Since the LPGA tour seems to be hurting for viewership, maybe someone in the know will see this thread and actually give a true scratch male golfer a shot like they do the US Open challenge? If that ever happened, I want a TRUE scratch golfer. Someone that plays by the rules, plays courses that are 6800+ yards, plays courses with rough thicker than the fairway, and plays greens that are faster than a 6.

[David in FL]

Stina Sternberg said in Golf Digest a month or two ago that a male 4 handicapper who hits the ball a long way still wouldn't beat anyone on the LPGA Tour. I tend to agree, though not necessarily for the reasons she stated ("pressure" was one of 'em).

I agree. I think an honest male scratch golfer, used to playing a variety of quality courses would keep his card. He might even do pretty well.......not necessarily win, but I could see a top 10 or two throughout the year.

I also agree that there's a HUGE difference between a 4 hcp and a scratch player. Ask me how I know......

[mtsalmela80]

Im not sure I get the point of this topic. Is it that men are better than women? At golf? I guess you could say the top 5% of the LPGA could hold their PGA cards too.

The top 1% of farm league players could compete in the majors too.

[iacas]

Since the LPGA tour seems to be hurting for viewership, maybe someone in the know will see this thread and actually give a true scratch male golfer a shot like they do the US Open challenge?

Problem there is the LPGA has nothing to gain. The guy wouldn't be able to fully prepare or anything, and if he did beat anyone that'd cast a poor light on the LPGA. They do need publicity, but "not all of these girls rock" probably isn't a great marketing slogan.

[deronsizemore]

Problem there is the LPGA has nothing to gain. The guy wouldn't be able to fully prepare or anything, and if he did beat anyone that'd cast a poor light on the LPGA. They do need publicity, but "not all of these girls rock" probably isn't a great marketing slogan.

Well that's true. Hell, I'd watch it though.

[David in FL]

I guess you could say the top 5% of the LPGA could hold their PGA cards too.

You might want to review Annika Sorenstam's performance in her one PGA tour event and rethink that statement..... http://www.pgatour.com/players/r/?/02/70/58/stats Note, I'm not saying she played horribly, but she was the best female golfer in the world at the time, and missed the cut on a relatively short (by PGA tour standards) course.

[iacas]

Let's stick to the topic, guys. It isn't Annika at Colonial or gimmicks the LPGA should try.

[ddalet]

I love hypotheticals like this. I wouldnt say I would win on the LPGA. But for fun when I play with my mom I'll tee up from the reds at our Country Club which is a Pete Dye course... with tough, fast and sloping greens (typical dye), and routinely shoot 2-3 under par.

Wedge play is all that matters in this situation if you can hit a 280-300 yd drive consistently.

[kris]

Well, he'd get the same practice rounds the pros do, and they do okay. Some of 'em have played the course 10 years in a row, yeah, but I don't know how much of a gap exists between "play it six times a year for 10 years" and "just played it two or three times and have a pro yardage book" - can't be too much, can it?

Yeah, that's sort of what I was trying to say. I think that this "legit" scratch golfer is fairly rare. I think most scratches are scratch on their one course, play it enough to record a lot of good rounds to establish a scratch handicap and maybe have a couple not so good rounds a few strokes worse on other courses. But this wouldn't really mess up their handicap. I just think for this more normal scratch golfer, it would take some adjusting to the tournament courses first before they start playing to their handicap. However, if the guy was a truly "legit" scratch, I can see what you're saying.

Have you been to an LPGA Tour event? Last one I went to I saw two photographers, and one of 'em looked like she was reporting for the local paper and had a camera and lens that ran about $2k combined. I've seen bigger crowds at state amateur tournaments... Most LPGA Tour events are happy to have a crowd one person deep. :)

I haven't been to an LPGA event but I've seen several on tv and see what you're saying. I kind of feel bad for the players because the crowds are almost non-existent. However, I still think there is a bit of pressure with everyone watching you, no matter how many people that may be. And I doubt the guy has played a round of golf with a tv camera trailing after him. I guess what I'm trying to say is it would be an adjustment more than anything, maybe not a disadvantage.

[enduro]

I'm not sure having people watching is a big deal. I played some high school sports and you'd have a lot of people watching you. In baseball for instance, we'd get 100 people at the game, surrounding the bases in the stands, making all types of noise, and you wouldn't notice when you're batting. That entire element goes away when you're focusing.

[bunkerputt]

A big factor in this "experiment" is the psychology of the whole thing. I'm pretty sure I'd play worse against girls of my skill level because I'd be nervous that I'd get beaten by one, which would happen half the time anyway. That's something additional that someone at scratch would have to deal with that the girls on the LPGA wouldn't be dealing with necessarily. I think that effect is underestimated. If it's a numbers game, then maybe. But in real life, I think it's a little more difficult, unless the event were publicized in the right way.

[unabowler]

At the Evian Masters that the women played last week the course was 63 hundred and some yards. I'm familiar with courses of that length (although it takes me plenty of shots to play them). On a course of that length you'll have several par 4s which are under 400 yards and likely a par 5 which is under 500. The longest hitters on the LPGA tour hit 270 off the tee but the average is about 250 and some are viable with 230s (Mi Hyun Kim). A male scratch golfer would devour a course like that, I think he'd finish above average in most women's fields.

[laxbballgolf]

Yeah, the muni course in the town I grew up in is 6,509 yards and it's short ! For a decent player, practically every par 4 is driver wedge (or even partial wedge); and the par 5s are reachable with two solid shots. Sure, the LPGA courses are of course a tougher design than my local muni, but driver wedge for a true scratch translates to a lot of birdies.

If that's really how long LPGA courses are (which I guess it is), then I think Mr Scratch would be a force on the LPGA Tour.