Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[iacas]

I may have a different definition of a scratch golfer than others. To me a scratch golfer shoots around even par when they travel to different courses and when they play in their city/state ams. They're not just 0 handicaps at their home course.

Right. That's not the kind of "scratch golfer" we're talking about.

[Shorty]

Right. That's not the kind of "scratch golfer" we're talking about.

Not only that, the ones we're talking about don't boast about having shot even par on their home course ONCE while saying they were averaging close to 80.

You don't just get to call yourself a scratch golfer because you like the sound of it.

Also, you look like  a fool when you tee it up with other players. Especially if you walk off with 77 and say it's better than average for you, a la @Buckeyenut

Scratch golfers are around par most of the time. Anywhere.

The pros are 5 or 6 under par a lot of the time.

[acerimusdux]

I may have a different definition of a scratch golfer than others. To me a scratch golfer shoots around even par when they travel to different courses and when they play in their city/state ams. They're not just 0 handicaps at their home course.

Or, probably more accurate to say course rating, or close. But while this is technically what a "scratch golfer" really is, we should maybe be clear as well that there aren't really that many of them around. This guy is probably going to qualify for his state amateur championship, and while he may not win it, there's a good chance he makes the cut.

If we're judging the LPGA golfer by how they score relative to CR, we should look at some of these top amateur tournaments as well in the same way. For example, looking at the Florida State Amateur Championship in 2013, participants played to a 79.3 stroke average on a 7193 yard course and a a 78.3 stroke average on a 6793 yard course. An average of 78.5 for the first two rounds was enough to make the cut ( link ). And in 2014, on a  7403 yard (CR 76.5) course and a 6965 yard (CR 74.6) course an average of 76.5 for the two rounds was enough to make the cut.

And while those were certainly tougher setups than the LPGA uses, I doubt all the qulifiers really were. For example, one qualifier in 2013 was held at a course near me which has a 72 CR, and a score of 74 was enough to qualify for the State Championship.

So if we say that we are really talking here about some of the top amateur tournament players in the state, would anyone disagree that those guys might be making some cuts on the LPGA Tour?

[Vinsk]

I most certainly agree.

[ay33660]

In some previous posts there were some comments as to the difficulty of the average LPGA course setup vs. a normal setup for non tournament public play.

I just came across an article written in Golf Canada where my course's superintendent, Dave Kennedy, talks about changes that need to be made for LPGA CP Canadian Open this August:

http://www.golfcanada.ca/blogs/article/gordon-golf/season-guardians-greens/

In terms of “heat,” this summer brings significantly more than most, since the Canadian Pacific Women’s Canadian Open arrives Aug. 17-23. It will be the fourth time the LPGA has visited Vancouver GC. To Kennedy’s advantage, he was there the last time in 2012. Also working on his behalf are the mild winter and the less demanding requirements of an LPGA tournament versus a PGA TOUR event.

“Other than a few minor changes, the course will play almost the same way it usually does for the members,” Kennedy says, putting to rest the widely held belief that the arrival of a major event totally disrupts the normal routine of a course and its members.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

I may have a different definition of a scratch golfer than others. To me a scratch golfer shoots around even par when they travel to different courses and when they play in their city/state ams. They're not just 0 handicaps at their home course.

So if we say that we are really talking here about some of the top amateur tournament players in the state, would anyone disagree that those guys might be making some cuts on the LPGA Tour?

No disagreement there.   I think most who posted in this thread would agree that male scratch golfers will make the cut.   Can they compete with the top LPGA players (Stacey, Ko, Wie, Park) in 4 day tournament condition?   A few insisted that they can, and their main arguments being males hit longer, LPGA courses are set up easier, etc..    I am no way near being a scratch golfer but I watch LPGA every week, and played with a few scratch golfers over the years.   They will make the cut all right but will not be winning any LPGA tournaments whether we use USGA definition of scratch golfer or any other definition.

[Osmond]

Havent read the other replies yet, but I'm pretty sure a legitimate male scratch golfer has a chance to win on the LPGA Tour. The courses are so short for him + it's not as if a legitimate scratch golfer is a bad golfer. He should and would average under par from the ladies tees.

[ay33660]

I golfed with a friend of mine who is a member at another private club.

He plays to a +2 handicap. He was a teaching pro when he was younger and soon realized that he wasn't going to make any money at it so he joined his family's insurance business and was successful enough to retire in his early 50s. (Well I think he would have been able to retire in his early 50s doing what ever job he chose)

We talked about this topic and his opinion was that while he could keep up and maybe even score better than most of the LPGA players on any given day or two days, he wasn't sure that he could keep it up for 4 days in a row.

Also while he has played in some local amateur events and there is a "scratch" league that he plays in, none of those events were 4 days long.

He has never played in front of any sized crowd so he isn't sure how he would handle the pressure.

He also noted that the way the handicap is calculated with only the best 10 out of 20 rounds counted and the use of Equitable Stroke Control, a bad round or a very bad hole doesn't get counted and helps to maintain his handicap. He pointed out that there are probably more rounds that are over his handicap than are below his handicap on his scoring record.

He did not comment on whether the length of his drives would help but he is not a super long driver of the ball anyways. He is long enough to be well within 150 yards on most second shots and his irons are spot on. He is also an unbelievable putter.

I am no where close to his ability so I don't know if any of his comments are valid.

[Golfingdad]

He pointed out that there are probably more rounds that are over his handicap than are below his handicap on his scoring record.

That is a mathematical certainty.  Everybody is going to have likely somewhere between 3 and 5, maybe 6, rounds in their last 20 that are better than their index.  (I currently have only 3)

[Vinsk]

@rkim291968 Again, distance is very important but not everything. This is obviously evident as the PGA courses are not only SHORTENED but they are "adjusted" in green speed and pin placements as well. Neither of these have anything to do with how long off the tee the player is. So why do they do this? Because the men are that much better. In every aspect of the game. Also, as stated before, crowds and 4 days are temporary issues the golfer would become accustomed to. We're not talking about throwing a scratch male golfer into a tournament and seeing how he does. We're talking about taking a scratch male and.... 1. He gets a swing coach and 100% access to a training facility with all the bells and whistles. 2. A caddie who knows the course inside and out. 3. At least 2 rounds of practice prior to competing at each tournament. 4. The chance to win thousands of dollars rather than a plastic trophy and some buddies giving him a hi-5. Male scratch golfer? He'd do just fine.

[rkim291968]

@rkim291968

Again, distance is very important but not everything. This is obviously evident as the PGA courses are not only SHORTENED but they are "adjusted" in green speed and pin placements as well. Neither of these have anything to do with how long off the tee the player is.

So why do they do this? Because the men are that much better. In every aspect of the game. Also, as stated before, crowds and 4 days are temporary issues the golfer would become accustomed to. We're not talking about throwing a scratch male golfer into a tournament and seeing how he does. We're talking about taking a scratch male and....

1. He gets a swing coach and 100% access to a training facility with all the bells and whistles.

2. A caddie who knows the course inside and out.

3. At least 2 rounds of practice prior to competing at each tournament.

4. The chance to win thousands of dollars rather than a plastic trophy and some buddies giving him a hi-5.

Male scratch golfer? He'd do just fine.

The bold is the main argument you have been giving in this thread.  In your mind, male scratch golfer = top LPGA player no matter what other views there have been in this thread.   This is a long thread with a number of insights from those who observed, or played against good women player.  None of that matters to you it seems.   In your mind, men (scratch golfer) is simply superior than top LPGA player beyond just making the cut.    That's a bit male chauvinistic, don't you think?

[Vinsk]

No. I don't think the scratch guy would beat the top LPGA pros. I do think it's ridiculous to think the scratch guy would fail miserably as some seem to believe. I haven't read any strong arguments supporting that at all. Some people are just uncomfortable to speak of the advantages males have. They take it personally or are so wrapped up in the world of PC ideals that they just can't accept the biological facts of nature. Not saying you. I just wanted to clarify as your argument mentioned things that we have already stated aren't along the discussion....crowds...4 rounds... Everybody knows a good boys highschool basketball team could destroy any WNBA team. It's not rude or sexist to say that. It's just the way it is. This is why women's sports (most of them) don't get the attention the men's do. My argument stems from wanting to see the women play the SAME course men do. The WNBA use 10ft rims and same size court yet have a physical disadvantage from the men. Women's soccer uses the same size field, same size goal. Tennis, Ping Pong, bowling, lacrosse...all the same. But oh no...for golf they've gotta shorten the course and slow the greens down? These women are exceptionally talented golfers. I don't wanna see them baby swing and punch a 5i around the course all day. I wanna watch them have to carry hazards, hit big fades, cuts. Any more it's just a putting contest because having distance makes little difference for the women. The courses are set up for all of them to have a good shot even if they're short off the tee. A male scratch golfer wouldn't beat the top LPGA players. But he would keep his card.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Vinsk" url="/t/27302/male-scratch-golfer-on-the-lpga-tour/396#post_1115297"] [@=/u/47949/rkim291968]@rkim291968[/@] Again, distance is very important but not everything. This is obviously evident as the PGA courses are not only SHORTENED but they are "adjusted" in green speed and pin placements as well. Neither of these have anything to do with how long off the tee the player is. So why do they do this? Because the men are that much better. In every aspect of the game. Also, as stated before, crowds and 4 days are temporary issues the golfer would become accustomed to. We're not talking about throwing a scratch male golfer into a tournament and seeing how he does. We're talking about taking a scratch male and.... 1. He gets a swing coach and 100% access to a training facility with all the bells and whistles. 2. A caddie who knows the course inside and out. 3. At least 2 rounds of practice prior to competing at each tournament. 4. The chance to win thousands of dollars rather than a plastic trophy and some buddies giving him a hi-5. Male scratch golfer? He'd do just fine.[/QUOTE] The bold is the main argument you have been giving in this thread.  In your mind, male scratch golfer = top LPGA player no matter what other views there have been in this thread.   This is a long thread with a number of insights from those who observed, or played against good women player.  None of that matters to you it seems.   In your mind, men (scratch golfer) is simply superior than top LPGA player beyond just making the cut.    That's a bit male chauvinistic, don't you think?

This is not male chauvinism, the argument is that a male scratch is better than the lowest card keeping LPGA player because the depth of the field is not that strong. The male would need his additional distance just to compete with the average player. We are also not talking about the "casual" scratch player, but one that is scratch no matter where he plays under all handicap systems. A true scratch is scratch under all handicap systems. Also, keep in mind that the lower LPGA player is still very impressive because even though she gets out driven by 40 yards or more she can still beat the male scratch player more than half the time.

[Vinsk]

@rkim I don't think you quite understand the topic, or perhaps you're the type who just gets a little sensitive when a reality of male vs female is mentioned. We are not equal physically. Period. Chauvinistic? Answer this then: could the 50th ranked PGA player beat Inbee Park if he played on a LPGA course from the same tees as her? Now, when you say yes...please state why you believe that... Guess what? Your reason is not chauvenistic.

[rkim291968]

@rkim

I don't think you quite understand the topic, or perhaps you're the type who just gets a little sensitive when a reality of male vs female is mentioned. We are not equal physically. Period. Chauvinistic?

Answer this then: could the 50th ranked PGA player beat Inbee Park if he played on a LPGA course from the same tees as her?

Now, when you say yes...please state why you believe that...

Guess what? Your reason is not chauvenistic.

How many times a point was made that male scratch golfer by definition plays to a certain score be it he is 6'10 who hits 300 yards drives or 5'5 hitting 240 drive drives?  If you agree with the definition, then the only question you need to ask is if a top LPGA players can play better than male scratch golfer over 4 days in tournament condition.   Your points have been that male scratch golfer will top the best LPGA players b/c they are physically stronger and hit longer which I don't believe.

Don't get me wrong.   My other points all along have been that a male scratch golfer will make the cut in LPGA but not enough to win (or end near at the top).

Guess what?   Today, I just played with a golfer with 2 HI on a course that resembles a typical LPGA course.  He carded +6 and that was an ok round for him.  Just another data point.

[rkim291968]

This is not male chauvinism, the argument is that a male scratch is better than the lowest card keeping LPGA player because the depth of the field is not that strong. The male would need his additional distance just to compete with the average player. We are also not talking about the "casual" scratch player, but one that is scratch no matter where he plays under all handicap systems. A true scratch is scratch under all handicap systems.

Also, keep in mind that the lower LPGA player is still very impressive because even though she gets out driven by 40 yards or more she can still beat the male scratch player more than half the time.

I agree.   I am just responding to Vinsk's point.   He made a claim that a scratch golfer can beat LPGA top players (Stacy, Ko, ...) in 4 day tournament at a typical LPGA courses b/c men are physically stronger and hit longer.   Long hitting LPGA players (Yani, Lexi, Lincicom, Wie) can hit 290 at will if they try.  Officially, top long LPGA player hits around 270 yards avg drive with good accuracy.   I'd say they hit just as long as a typical male scratch golfer, don't you agree?   To say, guys hit longer hence even a scratch male golfer can beat top LPGA player is IMO rubbish.   I will bet on Stacy to beat a male scratch golfer any day.

( I have seen these ladies practice at range and play in person last year at the SF tournament (Swinging Skirt).   I doubt if Vinsk has done the same.   Had he done that, he may have different opinion.  )

[Vinsk]

Rkim, Once again you're only stating opinion. You are in fact wrong. Only 2 ...that's TWO LPGA players average over 270yds. And only 1 of them are in the current top ten. You like others continue to ignore that distance is not the only advantage the men have. Once again read this clearly THE GREENS ARE SLOWER on LPGA courses than on the PGA. Why? If the women are big hitters as you claim, then they could have just as much success on the PGA as Zach Johnson right? Please suggest at what level you feel a male golfer would have to be in order to be successful on the LPGA? If you think a PGA touring pro would get beat by the top girls playing from their tees..you're delusional. So tell us...how good would a guy have to be?

[DrvFrShow]

Okay, since it's obvious that women are shorter, not physically as strong, let's leave the courses at 6600 yds. I think they could firm up the greens. The top 30 players will adapt and work on their short games. It'll thin the field of the marginal players.

Why are the greens softer anyway? Who made that decision? Have they tried letting the top women players play on the firm greens? Is it that they think women can't develop the skills to play on those greens? Stacy Lewis was saying the greens at Pinehurst were fun. Perhaps the groundskeepers are being told to overdo it? Why?

Also with physical training we can get stronger and hit longer. That's a fact. It's just that we might have some muscle definition.