How long to break 100/90/80...?

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by chilly

I really wish I'd have started playing when I was young, taking this on at 33 can be frustrating.

I started playing golf as an old broke down 46 year old ... I only wish I started at 33.    Took me about 9 months to break 100.    I could break 90 if I doubled my 9 hole scores, but haven't been able to do it yet on a full 18.

[x129]

I think your understating putting a bit as it is hard to break 100 with 54 putts but in general I agree with you. If your shooting 130s, putting isn't going to help you. Not hitting it out of bounds, topping, and hitting 10 yard dribblers will.  If your shooting 110 with 50 putts, then a couple hours of putting work is just what you need.

Breaking 100  is pretty much all about not screwing up. If you can hit the ball 150 yards in the rough direction you aim most of the time , can land a 20 yard pitch/chip on the green somewhere, and can hole out in ~40 putts, you will threaten 100 on most 6200 yard courses.  You can get down to 90 or so by tightening up this type of game (chips land with 15 feet of the hole, you get the putts down to 32 or so, better iron consistancy) or by adding in a long game and slightly better iron play.

You could also break 100 by bombing 275+ off the tee and hoping you only get a couple of penalty strokes  by hitting out of bounds. This tends to be the approach of the 20 year old exBaseball players i know. It works well on wide open courses.

Everyones game is a bit different. After a round take a couple of mins and think where with your current game  (i.e. not assuming major increases in distance or accuray) you could have saved strokes. At 100+ it is easy (3 bladed chips, 2 topped shots that went 20 yards, 3 shots to get out of the trap, the first putt you left 10 feet short,...). At 80 and 70 it gets a lot hard (needed to land the chip closer or make more 8 footers)

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

This doesn't make sense to me.  Are you suggesting that if someone who is over 100 tracks their rounds, most of their strokes will be lost to the putter?

There is no way.  Over 100, most holes 3-putt.  Even assuming you improve to the point where you 2-putt every green (doubtful, thats cutting 18 putts off your game for a duffer), that's 36 putts.  That leaves you 63 strokes for non-putt shots.  That means that to break 100 by improved putting, you need to get on the green in 3.5 shots per hole.  There is no way you can do that as an over 100 player if you "concentrate on putting".  The math doesn't work.  Putting matters, but it is clearly not the most efficient way to break 100, and is certainly not the "secret to golf".  Same with breaking 90 by "learning to chip" - the numbers don't add up.  Even if you assume you chip and one-putt to EVERY HOLE (a perfect chipping round - impossible, not to mention being accurate enough with your irons to chip to every hole) - you still need approximately 3.2 shots to a chipping position per hole.  That is way too low for someone who is in the 100s and has "concentrated" on chipping and putting.  The math doesn't work.  This actually steams me up a bit because I've spent alot of time thinking (and posting here) on how beginners improve the fastest.  One peantly for water or OB erases TWO shaved putts.  The math can't work.  Its not efficient to break 100 by putting better.

Did you do any testing or anything before you announced these rules?  Did you measure any beginners?

I am prepping a very long post on this, but I recently went from 130 to 76-79.  It was a long, hard trip, and here is what the *data* tells me:

Break 100: Eliminate penalties and fat shots.  Double bogey every hole but par 3s is a 104.  W/o penalties and fat shots its relatively easy to break 100.  Nothing to do with putting.

Break 90: Consistent contact, consistently get on the green from within 100 yards in 1 shot, consistently 2-putt when on the green.  Putting begins to matter, but only in not 3-putting.  The most efficient way to break 90 is to bogey alot of holes and grab 2-3 GIR 2-putts per round.

Break 80: Scoring matters.  All about consistent long game, excellent short game.  Putting and chipping absolutely vital to break 70.

Break 70: Don't know yet, but I doubt its play in tournaments, as I know a TON of people who play under 70 who don't play tournaments beyond scrambles.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

This doesn't make sense to me.  Are you suggesting that if someone who is over 100 tracks their rounds, most of their strokes will be lost to the putter?

There is no way.  Over 100, most holes 3-putt.  Even assuming you improve to the point where you 2-putt every green (doubtful, thats cutting 18 putts off your game for a duffer), that's 36 putts.  That leaves you 63 strokes for non-putt shots.  That means that to break 100 by improved putting, you need to get on the green in 3.5 shots per hole.  There is no way you can do that as an over 100 player if you "concentrate on putting".  The math doesn't work.  Putting matters, but it is clearly not the most efficient way to break 100, and is certainly not the "secret to golf".  Same with breaking 90 by "learning to chip" - the numbers don't add up.  Even if you assume you chip and one-putt to EVERY HOLE (a perfect chipping round - impossible, not to mention being accurate enough with your irons to chip to every hole) - you still need approximately 3.2 shots to a chipping position per hole.  That is way too low for someone who is in the 100s and has "concentrated" on chipping and putting.  The math doesn't work.  This actually steams me up a bit because I've spent alot of time thinking (and posting here) on how beginners improve the fastest.  One peantly for water or OB erases TWO shaved putts.  The math can't work.  Its not efficient to break 100 by putting better.

Did you do any testing or anything before you announced these rules?  Did you measure any beginners?

I am prepping a very long post on this, but I recently went from 130 to 76-79.  It was a long, hard trip, and here is what the *data* tells me:

Break 100: Eliminate penalties and fat shots.  Double bogey every hole but par 3s is a 104.  W/o penalties and fat shots its relatively easy to break 100.  Nothing to do with putting.

Break 90: Consistent contact, consistently get on the green from within 100 yards in 1 shot, consistently 2-putt when on the green.  Putting begins to matter, but only in not 3-putting.  The most efficient way to break 90 is to bogey alot of holes and grab 2-3 GIR 2-putts per round.

Break 80: Scoring matters.  All about consistent long game, excellent short game.  Putting and chipping absolutely vital to break 70.

Break 70: Don't know yet, but I doubt its play in tournaments, as I know a TON of people who play under 70 who don't play tournaments beyond scrambles.

You asked a bunch of questions. I will try to answer.

Clearly - CLEARLY 'poor' golfers cannot get the ball in the hole. The majority of strokes lost are on or around the green. No, I don't have data to back this up, I have my own experience of teaching and my personal experience in improving. Beginners don't just three-putt, they four-putt. They're probably around 40-45 putts per round. Get that down to around 32, very attainable, and there's the difference between 108 and 96.

Chipping - yes, thanks for the clarification. I meant the short game in general - inside 50 yards. The key is this - most players that are breaking 100 are somewhere 'around' the green in regulation. By 'around' I mean within 50 yards of the green. Turning 4-5 shots to 2-3 shots reduces the score further.

Course management comes next, because that's what many players lack - a par 4 or 5 automatically means driver off the tee, and there's no real 'plan' to play the hole. Its grip & rip, find in, and grip & rip again. Play smarter. That's what I am saying.

And finally, since you haven't played tournaments you will have to trust me on this. Nothing exposes remaining weaknesses more than playing tournaments. And it's the personal pressure of not wanting the embarrass yourself that will make you want to improve. I've shot 78s in tournaments and turned around the next day & shot 71 with my friends & thought 'jeez that was easy'.

You missed the rationale behind my approach, and that is, no swing thoughts. Swing like Furyk, swing like Daly, I don't care. Reverse-pivot to you heart's content - Fredrik Jacobsen does. Let your elbow fly - Nicklaus does. It's not about the swing. It's about the short game & playing smart. As you progress you'll obviously practice and learn your own way to hit the ball. So my story was a blueprint to improvement that doesn't involve beating balls 'til your hands bleed. It's build a bulletproof short game & manage the course. There's certainly other ways to improve, but I like my method. It's simple.

So maybe it doesn't make sense to you because it makes too much sense. Go ahead and work on eliminating fat shots. Here's how you do that - move the ball back in your stance. Then head to the putting green. Breaking 100 has nothing to do with putting? EVERY aspect of improving has to do with putting - one club accounts for anywhere from 25 to 45 of your strokes. Guys that can't break 100 can't putt. I don't need stats to back that up.

And thanks for checking out my blog.

[DublinMeUp]

You couldn't be more wrong.

Speaking as one of "those people" although i have just barely broken 100, no amount of putting practice will make up for the fact that we struggle to get the ball near the green in 3,4 or 5 shots. I don't know about the rest of the golf world but among my group ( all high handicappers except one ) we are relieved when we finally get the ball on the green because we know its likely only 1 or 2 more shortish and hard to F up shots before we hole out.

I read on this forum the best tip to break 100: Keep the ball in play .

Can't remember who i am quoting here but it shows they actually know and understand the problems high handicappers have.

For me at the moment putting is considered an easier part of the game ( its relative obviously ) ie as you drop your handicap putting becomes more important and therefore more troublesome. Give me 18 x 20 foot putts over 18 x  200 yard iron shots any day.

P.S i don't think i have ever 4 putted, if i have it may have happened once.

[zipazoid]

That's reassuring.

By all means. Do you own thing. There's no one way to learn this game.

Which, by the way, doesn't make me wrong.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Breaking 100 has nothing to do with putting? EVERY aspect of improving has to do with putting - one club accounts for anywhere from 25 to 45 of your strokes. Guys that can't break 100 can't putt. I don't need stats to back that up.

The math major in me just has to take issue with you here.  The absolute number is completely irrelevant - its not 25 to 45 strokes that matters, its percentage of total strokes.  For example, if a person took 300 shots to complete 18 holes, the 25 to 45 putts is virtually not important at all.  If a person takes 72 shots to complete 18 holes, the 25 to 45 range of putts is absolute critical (representing approximately 1/3rd of the score).  As the number of non-putting shots decreases, it is a mathematical fact that the number of putts will have a greater percentage contribution to the total score.  As your score drops, your putting becomes more and more important.  Up in the 100s, the effect of putting on your score is much less and, therefore, improved putting will correlate less to an improved score.

Quote:

They're probably around 40-45 putts per round. Get that down to around 32, very attainable, and there's the difference between 108 and 96.

Think about what you are saying.  They are shooting a 108 with, say, 42.5 putts (the average of 40-45) per round.  That means they have 65.5 non-putter strokes per round, which means it takes the player, on average, 3.6 strokes per hole to reach the green.  There is no way that it is easier and quicker and a better use of time to drop from 42 to 32 putts (an astronomical increase in putting success - you are going from 12 two putts and 6 three putts to 16 two putts and 4 one putts) than it is to average 3.08 (only .502 less per hole than at 108) strokes per hole to reach the green.  That is equal to eliminating 2-4 out of bounds or water shots per round and 2 fat shots.  It is much easier to eliminate wild/go nowhere long club shots that increase your putting efficiency by almost 100%.

Further, none of this analysis accounts for the fact that better non-putter play means easier putts (closer to the hole).  If you adjusted for this the numbers would be even more slanted toward long clubs.

Putting matters the fewer and fewer non-putter strokes you have.  Getting from 84-85 to 79, for me, was *all about* the putter.  But it is demonstrable that the putter's effect is very little at a high score and very influential on a low score.

To put it another way: the better you are with the long clubs, the more your putting matters.  However, the converse, that the better you are with the putter the more your long clubs matter, isn't true, because while your long clubs can produce 5,6,7 strokes per hole, you will never 5,6, or 7 putt, even your first time playing.  You need to "cap" your long clubs be removing wild shots - the putter is already capped and, therefore, doesn't need improvement until you are shooting in the low 90s.

I think you have some good ideas in your blog and I enjoyed reading some of your stuff.  I just think you are way off on this one point.

[DublinMeUp]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

That's reassuring.

By all means. Do you own thing. There's no one way to learn this game.

Which, by the way, doesn't make me wrong.

yes there are many ways to learn the game but i think you have mistaken what helped your personally with what will help everyone else.

[Harmonious]

Couple of thoughts:  True that the really bad golfer (100+) needs a whole lot of instruction and practice to eliminate the go-nowheres and penalty shots.  Depending on his physical attributes, or lack of same, he may never get much better.  There are some people who just can't physically hit a golf ball decently.

It's also true that putting and the short game take less physical coordination than the full swing.  It takes some eye-hand coordination, sure, but it is much easier from a physical standpoint to hit a good putt or chip than it is to hit a good full swing. Because of that, it is quicker and easier to  improve your putting/chipping than it is to become an adequate ball striker.

In my experience, I have rarely seen a high or even mid handicapper spend any amount of time on a putting green actually practicing putting and/or chipping.  Not talking about 5 minutes before a round, but an hour working on short putts, or an hour working on chipping or lag putts.  Maybe they exist but, like Sasquatch, I haven't seen one.  What I do see are the best players at my course, including tour pros, spend many hours on the practice green, swapping theories and putting techniques with each other and, in general, devoting the amount of time it takes to improve.

I have seen the high cappers beat ball after ball at the range, though. They generally remain high cappers.

So I guess the answer is that both areas need to be worked on to break 100.  Improved short game is the quickest and easiest starting point, but doesn't negate the need for a better full swing.

[x129]

Guys that can't break 100 can't putt. Sure. They also can't drive, hit chip shots, iron shots or get out of a bunker. 40 out of 130 is less than 1/3 of the shots. Yeah if your a 108 with 45 putts then focusing on putting  might get you down to around a 100.  If you a 130 with 36(or even 45) putts then no amount of putting practice isn't going to get you sub 100.  The first guy already has the somewhat decent swing that people are saying you need to break 100.  The second guy is topping it,hitting it fat, missing it, hitting OB off the tee, and so on.

P.S. not to you but if you have never 4 putted I bet you are playing with gimmes (or have small greens). I find it hard to believe I am the only one that has left a 60 ft putt 15 feet short, hit it 4 feet by the hole when I miss judged the downhill speed and then missed that putt by 6 inches on a somewhat regular basis when starting out.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

You asked a bunch of questions. I will try to answer.

Clearly - CLEARLY 'poor' golfers cannot get the ball in the hole. The majority of strokes lost are on or around the green. No, I don't have data to back this up, I have my own experience of teaching and my personal experience in improving. Beginners don't just three-putt, they four-putt. They're probably around 40-45 putts per round. Get that down to around 32, very attainable, and there's the difference between 108 and 96.

Chipping - yes, thanks for the clarification. I meant the short game in general - inside 50 yards. The key is this - most players that are breaking 100 are somewhere 'around' the green in regulation. By 'around' I mean within 50 yards of the green. Turning 4-5 shots to 2-3 shots reduces the score further.

Course management comes next, because that's what many players lack - a par 4 or 5 automatically means driver off the tee, and there's no real 'plan' to play the hole. Its grip & rip, find in, and grip & rip again. Play smarter. That's what I am saying.

And finally, since you haven't played tournaments you will have to trust me on this. Nothing exposes remaining weaknesses more than playing tournaments. And it's the personal pressure of not wanting the embarrass yourself that will make you want to improve. I've shot 78s in tournaments and turned around the next day & shot 71 with my friends & thought 'jeez that was easy'.

You missed the rationale behind my approach, and that is, no swing thoughts. Swing like Furyk, swing like Daly, I don't care. Reverse-pivot to you heart's content - Fredrik Jacobsen does. Let your elbow fly - Nicklaus does. It's not about the swing. It's about the short game & playing smart. As you progress you'll obviously practice and learn your own way to hit the ball. So my story was a blueprint to improvement that doesn't involve beating balls 'til your hands bleed. It's build a bulletproof short game & manage the course. There's certainly other ways to improve, but I like my method. It's simple.

So maybe it doesn't make sense to you because it makes too much sense. Go ahead and work on eliminating fat shots. Here's how you do that - move the ball back in your stance. Then head to the putting green. Breaking 100 has nothing to do with putting? EVERY aspect of improving has to do with putting - one club accounts for anywhere from 25 to 45 of your strokes. Guys that can't break 100 can't putt. I don't need stats to back that up.

And thanks for checking out my blog.

[DublinMeUp]

I'm sure i will 4 putt ( again if i have already ) in the future but was only commenting on the remark that 100+/- players 4 putt once or more per round.

@harmonious You mean to say the low handicappers and pros spend a lot of time on putting, because it is a very important part of their game. The high handicappers don't because it is not such an important part of their game. right? you can't have it both ways

Lets put it this way, imagine you are a club pro taking on a student for his first lesson. He shows up and gives you all the points he feels he wants to improve on. He avg's 100 per round, has had 95 and has had 110 but wants to consistently break 100.

You say great lets see you hit some balls. He then proceeds to slice, pull, top and every other variant of a miss for 50 balls with every long club in the bag ( yes this is an exaggeration but lets face it high handicappers all have at least one of these flaws if not most )

Are you telling me you would advise this guy to head off to the putting green and work on his short, mid and long putts?

I seriously doubt it.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by DublinMeUp

@harmonious You mean to say the low handicappers and pros spend a lot of time on putting, because it is a very important part of their game. The high handicappers don't because it is not such an important part of their game. right? you can't have it both ways

Lets put it this way, imagine you are a club pro taking on a student for his first lesson. He shows up and gives you all the points he feels he wants to improve on. He avg's 100 per round, has had 95 and has had 110 but wants to consistently break 100.

You say great lets see you hit some balls. He then proceeds to slice, pull, top and every other variant of a miss for 50 balls with every long club in the bag ( yes this is an exaggeration but lets face it high handicappers all have at least one of these flaws if not most )

Are you telling me you would advise this guy to head off to the putting green and work on his short, mid and long putts?

I seriously doubt it.

Not sure how you came up with that from my comments.  I said that the hacker needs to learn how to hit the ball better, for sure.  I also said that, from a physical standpoint, it is easier to improve your short game and putting than it is to improve your full swing.  And I said that I have rarely or never ever seen a hacker actually practice their short game or putting, and they remain hackers.  Maybe they have a bad teacher or maybe they physically can never be a good ball striker.  But they could shave some strokes from their score by improving their short game.

So yes, I would advise ANYONE to practice their short game and putting, in addition to their long game .  It just seems that the good players are the only ones who actually do.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

@harmonious You mean to say the low handicappers and pros spend a lot of time on putting, because it is a very important part of their game. The high handicappers don't because it is not such an important part of their game. right? you can't have it both ways

Actually, you can.  As I explained in my post, the lower your score the more important putting is.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Actually, you can.  As I explained in my post, the lower your score the more important putting is.

I think there are much, much better ways of looking at things. After all, the lower your score the more important everything is.

It's simply a matter of working on things in the proper balance. If you're hitting the ball well enough to shoot about 110 but you're shooting 120 because your putting is orders of magnitude worse, then work on your putting. If you're taking 40 putts but shooting 120 because it's taking you four or more shots to get onto every green then work on your ball striking.

Putting and the short game, in general, is easier to learn and easier to get "decent" at early on. Most often someone becomes proficient at putting and chipping before they become proficient at other things. If we were to assign handicaps to the "short game" and "long game" it's FAR more common to see someone with a short game handicap of 15 and a long game handicap of 30 than the other way around.

[JP1111]

I started playing this May. My first round I scored 133 and it took me about 15 rounds to break 100. I then stuck around the 95-105 range for a while and broke 90 around the end of August with an 88. I have threatened 80 a couple of times (82 is my best) but generally shoot high 80's or low 90's. On the subject of beginners quickly lowering their scores I would say the main things are driving, chipping and putting. When I say driving I dont mean being able the smash it 300 yards. However if you can just hit a solid 200 yards and keep the ball on the fairway it makes a big difference if your not hitting it OB every hole or getting in the trees and having to chop out sideways. And if you hit a big slice with your driver keep it in the bag and use a 3 wood until you learn to use it, accuracy is more important than distance. I think the reason that people see putting as a quick fix to your score is because its more about feel than technique. Even if you dont know what you're doing you can improve just by putting some time in and getting a good feeling for your putter. Whereas its much more difficult to work on your swing without getting advice or knowing what to work on.

[johnclayton1982]

I disagree, Iacas.

The post originally dealt with "keys" to breaking 100.  When I think of a "key" I think of something vital - not something that might help some but not help others, or could be done but would be much less efficient than any other way.

Quote:

It's simply a matter of working on things in the proper balance. If you're hitting the ball well enough to shoot about 110 but you're shooting 120 because your putting is orders of magnitude worse, then work on your putting.

But my point is that in order for you to be over 100, your putting cannot be "orders of magnitude" worse, because you won't 5 or 6 putt or hit putts in the water.  Now, at 88, you could certainly be in that position, but the math simply doesn't work over 100.  Even using your numbers, assuming a 3 putt on every single hole (which most beginners can beat), you'd still have a better chance to break 100 improving the long game (54 strokes to 66).

The maximum number of putting strokes is relatively fixed (nobody five putts regularly) but the maximum number of long strokes is not fixed.  Therefore, as total number of strokes increases, the effect of improved putting must decrease.  The worse you are the less putting matters.

If you are over 100, you need help on both putting and long game.  However, it is *not* a balance as you suggest because putting is capped.  Nobody 5 or 6 or 7 putts but plenty of people take that many strokes to reach the green.   Theoretically, you could take 10 strokes to reach the green, but you could never take 10 putts realistically.  Thats why putting is not a "key" to breaking 100.  Short game and putting are very important, but they are not "key" to breaking 100.

I find it very hard to believe there could be a golfer who gets consistent contact but is over 100 because he is the worst putter on earth.

Will better putting help you break 100?  Of course.  Is it the most efficient route for 99% of over 100 golfers?  No.  Is it the "key" to breaking 100?  Absolutely not.

[DublinMeUp]

this is building into another "feel" argument, im out

[luu5]

Originally Posted by DublinMeUp

I'm sure i will 4 putt ( again if i have already ) in the future but was only commenting on the remark that 100+/- players 4 putt once or more per round.

One of the reasons why high handicappers may not have many 4 putts is maybe due to fact that many approach shots are not on the green. They end up 1-10 yards of the proper green and chipping/putting gets those close enough to be able to 2-3 putt. So the putting stats may actually get worse when your GIRs go up with HC going down.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

But my point is that in order for you to be over 100, your putting cannot be "orders of magnitude" worse, because you won't 5 or 6 putt or hit putts in the water.

Will better putting help you break 100?  Of course.  Is it the most efficient route for 99% of over 100 golfers?  No.  Is it the "key" to breaking 100?  Absolutely not.

I don't think you understood my post very well, and I'm the last person you have to get on board with "practice your full swing."

Early on in a golfer's "career" and at higher scores it's easier to get relatively better at your short game than your long game, and that is a way to break through some barriers, partly because it's also easier to retain the short game skills you learn. Your talk of caps makes no sense, because if someone is threatening to break 100, they've "capped" their "long game" swings as well. They're not taking "unlimited" long game strokes, so pretending that it's possible is silly. They're not shooting 150 - they're shooting 105 (or whatever).