The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[iacas]

One is that it isn't the hips that begin this motion it is the spine. The hips simply are an extension of the spine and the hub of the human body so to speak. Try not to drive the hips forward but instead think of them as floating forward directed by the spine. This puts you in an incredible position to then drive from the ground up through the legs. If you try to drive the hips with the legs it will lead to all sorts of fun times(rough, water etc).

I disagree. You almost

must drive the hips forward with the legs - they're the only things that can "drive" anything because they're the only things that provide resistance (via your feet on the ground). Now, that said, feel isn't real so if you can push your lower spine (near your hips - we never want the upper spine to go forward much) without it feeling like it's coming from your feet or legs, good for you. But in my experience, focusing on the left knee or the right foot/ankle or the right hip or knee or the belt buckle or the tailbone all work.

I would also say that there almost always has to be a loop in the golf swing. This can be a limited effect...but at least with the driver no one who addresses the ball with the club grounded can claim to bring the club back on the same plane and in effect a loop is created.

Just be careful there - a loop is not the same as a plane shift. Not the way most people use it, anyway.

[Shanks A Million]

The hips slide a lot more than most of you may think. Here you can see I've put a stick behind me. At the top, it's visible just inside of my right thigh. In the followthrough position, it's outside of my right thigh. If that's how much I slide, imagine how much a better or more flexible player will slide?

[acegolfer]

Is Shawn Clement wrong in his Hogan power drill? His hip is forward at impact but it's not because his left hip slides during downswing. During downswing, his left hip only rotates around right hip, or "connects" according to him. His forward hip position at impact is a result of right hip "wiping" (moving forward) during backswing.

Or is his left hip "connecting" action at the beginning of downswing the same thing as hip sliding?

[James_Black]

What is the difference between a hip-slide and a sway?

[alomar123]

This thread is EPIC

[jamo]

What is the difference between a hip-slide and a sway?

As I have heard it defined, sway is generally used to mean away from the target on the backswing.

[iacas]

Is Shawn Clement wrong in his Hogan power drill?

Somewhat, yes. If memory serves he's fine on the backswing. He loses the plot a little bit on the downswing. What his video does get across nicely is that your hips (measured from your butt) can't move towards the golf ball - they have to stay "back" on that mirror or wall.

I don't understand the sway question. You can move your lower body without "swaying" in my book, but I don't know how everyone defines the words.

[James_Black]

Somewhat, yes. If memory serves he's fine on the backswing. He loses the plot a little bit on the downswing. What his video does get across nicely is that your hips (measured from your butt) can't move towards the golf ball - they have to stay "back" on that mirror or wall.

what is a sway then?

what's wrong with moving your hips right on the backswing (slightly) and then driving through on the downswing?

[Zeph]

what is a sway then?

Nothing, as long as you are able to get them forward again on the downswing. The problem with hips moving back on the backswing is it makes it harder to get them back forward. Especially for a beginner or high handicapper. Many pros do it, but they are good at it. It is an unnecessary move. Taking one step back and two steps forward, instead of taking no step back and one step forward.

[J_Bone]

what is a sway then?

What I call a "sway" is when my hips and shoulders move back and forth evenly. That requires precise timing when swaying forward and down at the ball on the down swing. By leaving the shoulders over the ball and sliding the hips only removes the timing of your "bottom of the swing".

That's what "sway" means to me.

what's wrong with moving your hips right on the backswing (slightly) and then driving through on the downswing?

I don't think anything, as long as you get enough forward slide.

That is what I'm working on at this moment. I have to much rotation and not enough forward slide.

[iacas]

Nothing, as long as you are able to get them forward again on the downswing. The problem with hips moving back on the backswing is it makes it harder to get them back forward. Especially for a beginner or high handicapper. Many pros do it, but they are good at it. It is an unnecessary move. Taking one step back and two steps forward, instead of taking no step back and one step forward.

What you said is correct except the "many pros do it." Sergio and Monty come to mind, but most will sway their upper center and leave their lower center pretty stable. Not many sway their hips back and in amateurs it's often a bad move.

[socaltaoist]

Great reading! To your points Iacas I would respectfully disagree with your statement about having to drive with your legs. I am not saying the legs don't play a role or don't drive at a certain point but this initial lateral movement can be done without a driving force from the legs. If any one of us stand in a natural standing position with feet shoulder width apart (or there abouts) we can swivel, rotate, slide, sway our hips from side to side and around without any force being applied in a horizontal direction from our legs or any direction really. Our legs provide stability, support and balance in our stance until the point where you would want to drive with them closer to the impact point. I guess this might come down to a push/pull problem. When I here "drive" I think "push" but if we are to assume that the legs are used in this motion we should look at the hamstring of the lead leg and not the push muscles of the back leg. By pulling your hips forward with your lead leg you drop into a lower position and are ready to strike. This motion also keeps you balanced a lot easier. But I am not sure either motion with the legs is necessary.
As far as the loop issue...I have a hunch we are agreeing but with different language. I use the term loop because I try to picture things as one motion instead of two motions if that makes sense. We are just taking to different views of the same thing...one discreet and one continuous (mathematically speaking...and neither wrong but both right...YAY!)

[acegolfer]

Somewhat, yes. If memory serves he's fine on the backswing. He loses the plot a little bit on the downswing. What his video does get across nicely is that your hips (measured from your butt) can't move towards the golf ball - they have to stay "back" on that mirror or wall.

Erik,

Thank you so much for answering! I have been wondering this question for many weeks. I have grooved my hip rotation using Shawn Clement's drill to fix hip thrust and it worked. Nevertheless, when I see my impact position, I still see weight is not fully transferred forward. I will work on hip slide and hope it will fix it. One more question for everyone. Without the hip slide, I currently have in-out swing (misses being push straight or hook, normal shape is draw). I'm trying to reduce the excessive in-out swing currently so that my swing path is more (not necessarily exactly) square to the target line. My current drill that seems to work is to stand closer, narrower stance and shorten backswing. After reading 8 pages, it seems that hip slide will make the swing path even more inside-out. I'm worried that it will mess my swing path even worse. What can I do to avoid more in-out swing? (I know I can try things out at the range, but I'm out of country and won't be able to hit the range the next 2 weeks.)

[alomar123]

Is Shawn Clement wrong in his Hogan power drill? His hip is forward at impact but it's not because his left hip slides during downswing. During downswing, his left hip only rotates around right hip, or "connects" according to him. His forward hip position at impact is a result of right hip "wiping" (moving forward) during backswing.

That seems like a very good drill, I tried it today and right away I saw that on the downswing I moved away from the wall, and it was hard to keep my head from moving fowards some. Also, my weight on the backswing wiping the wall was not =, but favoring my left leg, any idea to fix that, seems like a lot of power will be lost there.

Somewhat, yes. If memory serves he's fine on the backswing. He loses the plot a little bit on the downswing. What his video does get across nicely is that your hips (measured from your butt) can't move towards the golf ball - they have to stay "back" on that mirror or wall.

Could you explain to me why the downswing part was losing its plot. I dont want to put hours ingraining this in my swing if parts of it are misleading.

[iacas]

To your points Iacas I would respectfully disagree with your statement about having to drive with your legs.

A great many good golfers talk about using their legs in the golf swing. Tom Watson said he "lost his legs" last year in the playoff at the British Open, for example.

I guess this might come down to a push/pull problem. When I here "drive" I think "push" but if we are to assume that the legs are used in this motion we should look at the hamstring of the lead leg and not the push muscles of the back leg.

Yeah, you push off of your back leg. You push the hips forward. It's a different feeling for everyone, but a lot of golfers - myself included - often feel that the pushing comes from the right foot/knee. Again, feel isn't real and the "feelings" that work for different people are all different, but biomechanically the rear leg and the front leg both engage.

After reading 8 pages, it seems that hip slide will make the swing path even more inside-out. I'm worried that it will mess my swing path even worse. What can I do to avoid more in-out swing? (I know I can try things out at the range, but I'm out of country and won't be able to hit the range the next 2 weeks.)

It can, yes, but you're probably "faking it." Long story short but your upper center is probably also translating slightly to the right. It's a good/decent player move to "fake" the secondary axis tilt. The club drops to the inside with this move too. The "fix" can be complex because you need to feel everything going forward - your upper and lower centers.

Could you explain to me why the downswing part was losing its plot. I dont want to put hours ingraining this in my swing if parts of it are misleading.

I think he focuses too much on rotation and not enough on how much Hogan drove forward. Hogan drove forward more than almost anyone else I've ever seen on video - Shawn puts a bit too much emphasis on rotation instead of lateral motion. IMHO, of course.

[RC]

This is a good (as mentioned, epic) topic. Of course it has to start with the legs attacked to earth. You could not do a very good job of hitting a ball floating in outer space. The word "slide" gets misunderstood. No swing theory thinks you slide everything left as you hit the ball, it is just the hips move left (and the left knee moves with it,) the weight remains on earth, but mostly transfered to the left leg to support the weight, and the head generally remains in place so the upper body does not slide the same amount at impact as the lower body. So "sliding forward" requires the second key part of what every swing theory requires, the turning of the forward hips leading the turning of the shoulders -- otherwise you would swing far too much outside in and not approach from the inside. And impact has a sort of reverse K type form, not a leaning forward shape (don't get hung up on the reverse K, it is not a perfect analogy but it is a better picture than a left leaning Tower of Pisa) -- which would never "pop the whip" so to speak. The eye fools you because you see a flowing move left, but it is the very precise sequence and timing of all the parts that makes a good swing work.

Finally, what any one person needs to think about is different from another. If you already slide well forward with the hips (and not many do it naturally and enough) then you might even feel your left hip turns back to the left (behind you) through impact... sort of a a yo yo type move. This is an illusion to many who have difficulty looking at a moving frame of reference. This does happen relative to the right hip but the frame of reference is moving so it might look that way. Most come no where near this position. That is why you wind up on your left leg at the finish (and on the right toe) in a balanced swing. And after everything has happened, your head can be more or less forward, you just want to be in balance with no spin out and a right calf (lower leg) that is pretty much parallel to the target line. You have it right when after impact someone could give you a little shove in almost any direction and you could maintain balance.

[Shanks A Million]

Finally, what any one person needs to think about is different from another. If you already slide well forward with the hips (and not many do it naturally and enough) then you might even feel your left hip turns back to the left (behind you) through impact... sort of a a yo yo type move. This is an illusion to many who have difficulty looking at a moving frame of reference. This does happen relative to the right hip but the frame of reference is moving so it might look that way.

There's a lot of good feelings to reference. Feel is not real, and often what feels right is wrong. When I strike the ball purely on plane, it feels as if I'm hitting up on it. When I try to hit down, all I do is get steep. On plane feels to me like I'm swinging around my belt line. A full swing to me feels like it's 1/8 of a swing.

All of these things I had to learn the hard way, with a camera and a lot of experimentation. Everything from where I focus to what my legs do is bound by reality, but interpreted as feel. To get where I want to go, I need to exaggerate a feel. If I want to shorten my swing a few inches, I feel like I'm swinging 1/4 as far back. Most people don't realize (re: don't have cameras), so they don't exaggerate enough. Hip slide is one of those things it's hard to overdo, but easy to screw up. You almost can't slide them too far, but you can sway forward. That's what's important to know. It's nearly impossible to overdo deep hands or hip slide.

[jl923]

I've been trying to slide the hips and have been quite inconsistent with this. Last saturday I positioned the ball further up in my stance, at my left heel and I hit the ball so pure and straight. I had never hit even the 6 iron consistently and I was drilling 3 and 4 irons. The swing felt effortless - i really felt like i was swinging with a 10% of my strength but the ball went further than it ever did. I used the same ball placement for my pw - 3 iron. I'm assuming that in an effort to reach the ball at my left heel, i was sliding my hips the correct way?

One problem - i couldnt replicate the swing with the driver. Getting my hands in front of the ball at impact feels very odd when hitting a ball on a tee. Any thoughts or tips on how to replicate the same swing with a driver?