Handicaped Tournaments

[andyh]

Right. If I play with a handicap 4 strokes above my real one then I have a chance.

As i said most of the handicap tournys/competitions we play are from the whites. I know many guys with handicaps around 10-15 who can comfortably shoot a 78 or 79 on a good day. They keep it in play as much as I do, and if they have a good day on the greens then they are in good shape. But these same guys off the blues are not long enough and could not compete. But due to the limited numbers we have to do it this way.

So to compete with these guys off the whites, I have to shoot almost par, which is infinitely more difficult for me, and even that guarantees nothing.

As goblue says it doesn't seem fair when you shoot a 75 and someone else shoots 85 and wins.

My wife doesnt get it when i come home and she asks how did i do. I tell her I won but lost.

[deronsizemore]

Right. If I play with a handicap 4 strokes above my real one then I have a chance.

Yeah that's why the two tournaments I play in per year are not handicapped. One if a flighted tournament where they flight you after the first round (still susceptible to sandbagging but they have a 10 stroke limit), and the second one is an actual tournament with no handicaps. No sandbagging there.

[Fat Slice]

Part of the problem is the mentality of some low handicappers. They figure they should be beating the high handicappers most of the time. If the handicap system is working properly, they should win 1/2 the time, more or less.

What the OP is complaining about -- someone abusing the handicap system by cheating and not entering low scores -- is not a problem with 'the handicap system' in tournaments, it's a problem with that guy and those like him.

Meanwhile, if a low handicapper loses to a high handicapper after giving up a bunch of strokes - that's golf! Play him 10 times and you'll probably win 5 or 6 times. Play once, lose once, and I can see how you could think it was unfair...but the stats disagree. The Scottish Golf Union studied match play results and determined "...(with) full difference (of handicap applied), the low handicapper won 55%". CONGU extrapolated that to be truly equitable, the higher handicap should enjoy almost 125% of difference, although nobody is suggesting that!

http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=174

If are a low handicapper and don't like giving up strokes maybe the best thing to do is to avoid those kinds of tournaments. Statistically, though, do realize that you have the advantage.

[andyh]

A low handicapper does beat a high handicapper all of the time.

But because we all play at different levels, handicaps give us an even playing field so we can have some fun bets. I love the competitions and play alot in tournys with handicaps ranging from 3 to 36. It is my observation as a low handicapper that unless the tournaments are played at 75-80% of handicap it is in favour of a high handicapper on a stapleford basis. On a gross basis it is more fair but we don't play that.

As you say though, the real problem is not the system but the sandbaggers.

[Fat Slice]

The SGU crunched data from 4,000 matches - resist the urge to apply anecdotal evidence!

[andyh]

I think we have to share our own experiences as this is what the forum is for.

I don't doubt the data you have highlighted.

But I do know for fact what happens where I play. And you know after every competition we go to the bar, have some beers and moan and winge about everyones handicaps. Part of golf isn't it?

I also know for fact that certain conditions suit the higher handicappers. A guy who plays with us, 70 years old or so, often wins with 40 + stableford pts. He is straight (not long), can putt really well and NEVER gets in trouble. Plays off 26. 2 strokes on most holes. Par 5s, 4 shots to the green, 2 putts and net birdie. almost every time. Occasional par and that is net eagle.

Ridiculous really but thats how it is. Playing against that is almost impossible.

Now put everyone at 7,000 yards and play and no doubt the results would be different. But who wants to see 6 hour rounds?

[Fat Slice]

And you know after every competition we go to the bar, have some beers and moan and winge about everyones handicaps. Part of golf isn't it?

An indispensible part!

I wasn't trying to muzzle you, sorry if I came off like that. I meant that when talking about global statistics, individual observations don't affect them. I think they should split up tournaments by tees, rather than by handicap, and then apply handicap differences in each group. I've suggested that for next year...we'll see what happens! What happens this year is that the shorter hitters no show the tournaments with the long courses, and the big hitters stay away from the short courses. I'd like to see more people come out for everything and hopefully that kind of a split would help.

[Leftygolfer]

If he did that a couple of times this year on a course of any difficulty there is no way he turned it in.

I am a 11 flat right now and have one round of 77 and a career low of 75, I have only shot in the 70s less than 5 times and my index got down to an 8 right after I shot my low.

There was a guy in my club championship who was in my flight and shot a 73. He wasn't sandbagging because he got kicked up to the next and got second still. It would have been better if he stayed in the 10 stroke rule so I guess it is possible. It beat his career low by 5 shots is what he said.

[andyh]

yep, you hit the nail on the head. splitting up is the way to go. we just don't have enough guys to do this so we end up all together. high handicappers dont want to play longer tees and low handicappers find it tough to compete off the whites with these guys.

thats golf. you gotta pick your tournies i guess.

my favourite comp is playing skins with a couple of guys my handicap. no strokes. any of us can win on any day and if feels more fair to me.

[Lefty-Golfer]

And you know after every competition we go to the bar, have some beers and moan and winge about everyones handicaps. Part of golf isn't it?

Quoted for TRUTH!!!

[RandomRaiderTTU]

Well, to get back to the OP's question:

I am hovering between a 12 and a 13.

I have a low this year of 76 (best career score) and a 78 the weekend after that. On the 76, I shot 2 under on the back nine. I was on fire.

Now, during that time though, my handicap dropped to an 8 because I also had some 80's and 81's from some easier courses, but what I'm saying here is that if he shot in the mid-70's...he should be no where near the handicap he claimed.


As for some of the other talk about being upset by getting hammered by a higher handicap, I just think there's a ton of sandbagging out there.

In the LAST flight of our club championship, a guy with a claimed handicap of 16 posted scores of 82, 83, and 87. Could he have been playing really well those three days? Certainly possible....but not probable.

[Shorty]

Sounds very fishy to me.

Why would anyone be posting a score in match play when you don't actually have a "score" as such? It is not stroke play, and with conceded putts of any length, it is not possible to have a score, only a result in the match. I have never heard of match play events where people think of it in terms of a score, rather than a result, like 2 and 1 or 1 up.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Why would anyone be posting a score in match play when you don't actually have a "score" as such? It is not stroke play, and with conceded putts of any length, it is not possible to have a score, only a result in the match. I have never heard of match play events where people think of it in terms of a score, rather than a result, like 2 and 1 or 1 up.

I agree with your comments on a score in match play. It is almost all we play at my club. I have only played a couple stoke play rounds in the last two years. You post a score based on what you shot and the hole itself.

if you finish the hole the score is correct. If you are a 16 (or there about) you only are noty allowed to post more then a double bogey on each hole anyway...all you are really bridging is a shot or two here or there. Plus the posted score typically comes in slightly lower then the real total. Why do you post score at all in match play? Gambling!! Handicaps!! which allow more gambling!! Think about it I have posted close to 50 rounds this year. Of those 47 at match play, if i didn't post them I would show 3 rounds for the season. Talk about Variance.

[MiniMoe]

Sandbagging will always be around because many do not believe it's cheating if "everyone else is doing it". The odds of someone blowing their handicap are different for different handicap levels. A 2 handicap is going to have the round of his life to shoot 10 under it. A 15 handicap might just have a great day chipping and putting. My brother was a legit 15. He barely broke 90 when he played, and once in a while he would shoot an 87. One day we were playing and I told hit to hit 3-w off of the tee. He shot 75 very easy because he did not miss fairways. Did he sandbag? Since he never played bad on purpose, no he did not. He just learned in one day some course management skills and happened to chip and putt very well.

I play a lot of charity scrambles. We play a Peoria scoring. That is where you take three holes on each side - par5, par4, and a par3. Add up those numbers. Shots are based on what you do on those six holes. It's fair because you don't know what holes they are gong to pick, so you can't throw off in hopes of getting strokes. If you did know what holes, then you par all six and maybe bogey one of them and you will get tuns of shots. It's the most fare system I have seen on a scramble, because not always the most stacked team wins.

I just played in one, we shot a legit -17 (54) for a net 58. There were 6 teams that tied with a net 58 with gross scores ranging from 56 to 67. To have the scores that close tells me the system is fair. I think we won on the draw playoff, but I don't know how that was done.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Sandbagging will always be around because many do not believe it's cheating if "everyone else is doing it". The odds of someone blowing their handicap are different for different handicap levels. A 2 handicap is going to have the round of his life to shoot 10 under it. A 15 handicap might just have a great day chipping and putting. My brother was a legit 15. He barely broke 90 when he played, and once in a while he would shoot an 87. One day we were playing and I told hit to hit 3-w off of the tee. He shot 75 very easy because he did not miss fairways. Did he sandbag? Since he never played bad on purpose, no he did not. He just learned in one day some course management skills and happened to chip and putt very well.

+4.....WTF spend a fair amount of time working on that swing I guess.

[laconic517]

handicapped tournaments suck.

A 13 shooting a score like that in a tournament is definitely sketchy

[kevin.chan]

Some place use "Peoria System"

Definition: The Peoria System is a sort of 1-day handicapping system for tournaments in which most of the golfers do not have real handicap indexes (company outings, for example)。

The Peoria System - while, like the similar Callaway System, based in certain part on luck - allows a "handicap allowance" to be determined and then applied to each golfer's score。

The tournament committee secretly selects six holes. These are usually two par 3s, two par 4s and two par 5s, and often one of each type per nine (one par 3 on the front, the other on the back nine). Competitors do not know which holes have been selected。

Groups tee off and complete their rounds, playing stroke play and scoring in the normal fashion with one exception: double par is the maximum (i.e., 8 is the maximum score on a par-4)。

Following completion of play, the six Peoria holes are announced。

Each player totals his six secret holes. That total is multiplied by 3; par is subtracted from that total; then the resulting number is multiplied by 80 percent. This is the player's allowance. The allowance is subtracted from the player's gross score and the result is the net Peoria System score。

Example: On the six holes, Player A uses 30 strokes. 30x3=90. 90 minus par-72 is 18. Eighty percent of 18 is 14 (round off). Fourteen is the allowance. Player A's gross score is 90; 90 minus 14 results in a Peoria System net score of 76。

Peoria is sometimes called Bankers System or a Bankers Handicap。

Also Known As: Peoria Scoring System, Peoria Competition, Bankers Handicap System


End of the day

The club will have prize for 2 categories

1. Gross Score ( for really low handicap )
2. Nett Score ( for higher handicap )

Somehow the Peoria System have the element of luck . If the holes that you did well but did not roll to your handicap of the day , you are lightly going be rewarded higher handicap than your actual.

[DBeane]

Sounds like a hussle to me.

True the handicap system was designed to "level" the playing field so I could go play Phil and the match would be "fair". However in a tournament, or anything that costs any money, if I cant play you straight up, then I dont want to play you at all.

Of course everynow and then a blind squirril finds a nut. You can usually tell a good player vs. bad, by things like balls striking, how comfortable is he on a course, his putting. A 15 handicapper that plays a lot could career it and shoot 74. The round would probably include a few chip ins, some long putts made, and some really good bounces. Hitting the hybrid from 172 to two feet sort of thing.

-Beane