"Deep" Hands Explained (or "Depth")

[iacas]

I can't believe this post has so few responses. It's old, but very relevant.

Agreed. Thanks for the "revival." This post is perhaps even more important than the "hip slide" thread, which has lots of discussion.

So if I can draw a golf ball sized circle around my hands and the club head at CPA (P2?) then my hands will probably be deep enough?

No - I could lift the club straight up in front of me and pivot the club away down the target line and they'd be the opposite of deep.

I've read that the club shaft at CPA should be directly over your right toes or even slightly outside, but it should never be inside. My swing thought for takeaway is simply wide extension with minimal wrist cock until the top of the swing.

If you want to stay on plane, that's above the plane. It's also not "wider" because as you rotate, "width" becomes how far to the LEFT you can swing viewed down the line. Here's an illustration:

To get the same distance from the ball as Charlie's got on this relatively short swing (it's a wedge, so he's not trying to kill it), a golfer with a more upright plane would have to swing the butt of the club to the end of the red line. It's the same length as the green line. Which is "deeper," A or B? Which has more "width" from the golf ball? Face-on they're going to be identical. Down the line it's obvious that A does - and many people can't even get to B... Depth is width. The more you move away from the golf ball the better. The "deepest" you could get would be to take your hands straight away from the ball (i.e. the shaft plane) from where they are at setup.

Erik, what are the differences between having "deep hands" and having too much of an inside takeaway? I used to have an awful takeaway where I would get way inside extremely early in the takeaway - I have since worked on it and corrected it. But that picture of Baddeley brought back some old memories of my old swing.

You probably whipped the clubhead inside and not your hands. Big difference - I'm saying the hands AND the clubhead should stay on plane. When the clubhead goes under, the hands almost always go over to compensate.

For some reason I am finding I can't get my hands very deep quickly UNLESS i am getting the club head inside my hands at parallel back swing.

Then you're doing something wrong. Would love to see your swing on video because I can't say what you're doing here based on that sentence... You may simply need to cock the club up faster. It'll "speed up" how fast you get to P2 (club shaft horizontal on takeaway).

At P2, the hands and clubhead should be somewhere over your zipper, you do not want

Hands pass through the bottom of the belt buckle, yes.

As you progress fro P3 to P4, you want the hands to pass through the bicep, or base of your bicep on the right arm. A position too far forward would be if the hands passed through the middle of your chest.

The second checkpoint, yes.

And for those who think Nicklaus swung really upright, he pretty much got to this P3 position - he just lifted from there to get to the top. Which is part of the reason he played a fade.

Having someone else watch you is also an option.

Additionally, make sure your right elbow is soft at the start. It'll start bending a little right from the start of the takeaway. That's fine. No "stiff right elbow" which can cause its own problems.

[MJP]

Thanks for the responses Iacas. Yeah, I would definitely like to get a video up one of these days. Hopefully soon.

Perhaps my hands are getting too deep too fast then? I can't fathom bringing the hands deep quickly without the club head getting inside parallel to target line at p2.

so perhaps good swing thought might be to keep my hands glued to the 3-4 inch invisible barrier around the right half of my belt buckle (right hip)

Maybe I have too much wrist/arm rotation which is pulling the club head inside even though I am getting pretty deep. I'm going to try and focus on keeping my arms and wrists still and just focus on pulling my hands deep in from the p1.

I'm pretty sure that's why It's getting inside too early. Because when I try getting really deep early I am seeing less rotation in the arms.

[$2 Nassau]

I can't fathom bringing the hands deep quickly without the club head getting inside parallel to target line at p2.

this has been tough for me to wrap my head around as well.

[iacas]

Perhaps my hands are getting too deep too fast then?

Highly, highly, highly unlikely.

I can't fathom bringing the hands deep quickly without the club head getting inside parallel to target line at p2.

Look at the Rickie Fowler video. Deep hands, clubhead nowhere near inside parallel.

Cock the left wrist faster rather than rotating it so quickly. Rotation is how the clubhead gets under the plane.

[Zeph]

Of course it's possible to get the hands deep without flipping the club inside. Just look at Charlie Wi, Rickie Fowler, David Wedzik, Erik, heck, even I am able to do it.

If you never practice it and don't use something to aid you in identifying the proper move, don't expect to get it down. Have any of you really tried the methods suggested before complaining? The how's and where's have been spelled out with both text and pictures, all you have to do is go work on it.

[TourSpoon]

Iacas,

Does this swing issue tend to creep in with you more with a particular club?

I am just thinking that I can feel the deepness with most of my irons, but tend to lose it more so with the driver. It almost feels too deep. What is your experience?

[MJP]

Of course it's possible to get the hands deep without flipping the club inside. Just look at Charlie Wi, Rickie Fowler, David Wedzik, Erik, heck, even I am able to do it.

The method Iacas suggested is really helping. Feels very awkward which I know is a good sign. It feels like my takeaway is much steeper now due to the early wrist cock (kinda look like fowler at p2, but that's just rehearsing in slow motion), but the early wrist cock has helped eliminate the rotation that gets me inside.

My swing thought for practicing this is quickly bring the hands back around the right side of my belt line while cocking them. When they are cocked they can't rotate anywhere near as easily. I'd say I have maybe 20% the rotational ability with my wrists when they are cocked then uncocked. Thanks Iacas and Zeph. I'll try to get a video up soon. I was already getting pretty deep hands with my more natural feeling takeway, I was just rotating my wrists too much from p1 to p2

[MJP]

I've been rehearsing this in the mirror and I think I've finally got a solid swing thought for it. I was getting my hands deep in my last post but not necessarily high in the p4 position (such as left arm pointing at least 45* between left arm at p3 and straight up vertically from a face on view . This is what the height i was lacking kind of looks like this \ even though that's more like 60 degrees and if you imagined a clubs haft attatched to that you'd imagine it parallel to the ground at p4)

Anyways, I was getting the depth now without height until I felt like to me what was the right sequence. I think quickly deep as possible almost imagining myself reaching straight behind my back until I can't reach back there anymore all while cocking my wrists. When I feel I'm approaching the deepest I can reach I'll start moving up while still stretching deep. This took me a while to put together in slow motion but when I finally brought it up to full speed the whoosh of my driver was like never before. Definitely got more club head speed and felt more from the inside on the downswing.

Also, I noticed getting my hands deep with the sensation that I am almost pushing my hands and arms straight behind me encourages a better hip turn in the process. Something I feel I was lacking. The coil this is bringing is crazy. I feel like back swing is shortened by a lot (club shaft pointing parallel or worse wise) because I am going more back instead of up. I love this feeling of not coming over the top as well.

One thing. Is it okay if my the club head is a decent amount outside than the hands at p2? I can't draw a little circle around mine with this new take away.

edit: Well I'm guessing the answer to that last question is yes, because Fowler's swing looks amazing in this one. stopping at p2 his club head plane is way outside. this is good I'm assuming. either that or his swing is too flat which would mean the depth was good not enough height? Although it looks like it works for Rickie



here is maybe a poor swing from Fowler?



Nicklaus and Faldo didn't sound like they were liking it too much.

[nevets88]

So according to SnT, which swing movements/aspects are most important if you had to rank them?

No weight shift back/centered
Deep hands
Hip slide
Shoulder tilt towards target
Let the back knee flex
Popping up around impact

[MJP]

I've never understood the purpose of trying pop up around impact (I assume you mean straightening your front leg to post up on). I just know people do it. Whenever I tried it I just lost my balance.

[Fatphil]

I can't believe this post has so few responses. It's old, but very relevant.

shout out to MJP, I was looking for this thread...couldn't find it....thanks!

[iacas]

One thing. Is it okay if my the club head is a decent amount outside than the hands at p2? I can't draw a little circle around mine with this new take away.

Just cock the club up a little less quickly. Ideally you want it on line, though if I had to pick I might prefer it to be slightly over rather than slightly under.

I've never understood the purpose of trying pop up around impact (I assume you mean straightening your front leg to post up on). I just know people do it. Whenever I tried it I just lost my balance.

You're probably not doing it correctly. It happens around or just before P6. It's not a true "pop up" move - it's just a lengthening and extension of the left side of your body. The point is to whip the club around the corner (P6) and into the ball and also to get the club out of the ground quickly. It's a shallowing move that also plays a big role in power/clubhead speed.

So according to SnT, which swing movements/aspects are most important if you had to rank them?

Mike and Andy are asked to describe their swing in two words. They say "Weight forward." Give them two more and they say "Shoulder down." Two more and they add "Hands in." Two more? "Arms straight." And the downswing is summed up by their final two words: "Tuck butt."

That answers the question.

[alomar123]

OK, I started to really feel deep hands today and it felt strange, but it should. It brought me on plane and the ball flights was really good with less thin/fat shots. The problem I get with it occasionally is a huge pull to the left(probably not not turning through. Also, I can get stuck and a lower burner to the right will happen. I think both are related to turn. Any advice?

[nevets88]

Mike and Andy are asked to describe their swing in two words. They say "Weight forward." Give them two more and they say "Shoulder down." Two more and they add "Hands in." Two more? "Arms straight." And the downswing is summed up by their final two words: "Tuck butt."

Thanks. That is a very handy dandy "cheatsheet".

Arms straight - that's a couple of feet after impact?

[Stretch]

OK, I started to really feel deep hands today and it felt strange, but it should. It brought me on plane and the ball flights was really good with less thin/fat shots. The problem I get with it occasionally is a huge pull to the left(probably not not turning through. Also, I can get stuck and a lower burner to the right will happen. I think both are related to turn. Any advice?

Refer to

the other thread. My wild-ass guess is both misses ultimately come from the same thing -- not going forward enough and coming over the top. When the club face is closed at impact you get a dead pull and when it's open you drill it out to the right.

[iacas]

I am just thinking that I can feel the deepness with most of my irons, but tend to lose it more so with the driver. It almost feels too deep. What is your experience?

It can't really be "too deep" because your chest gets in the way. It can be "not high enough" if you swing like Matt Kuchar last year, I suppose, but not "too deep."

With the driver, the swing plane is flatter because you're not as bent over, so the driver will actually be the "deepest" of them all. The shoulders turn flatter than with a wedge, so more of the rotational direction is horizontal than with a steeper plane.

[atrapasuenos]

What is the shot shape produced by deep hands? Is there only one way to get your hands deep, or you can achieve that position in a different way?

Cheers!

[iacas]

What is the shot shape produced by deep hands? Is there only one way to get your hands deep, or you can achieve that position in a different way?

Whatever you want. But if you don't take your hands deep, you can really only hit pulls and fades/slices. If the hands never get in, you can't hit in to out at anything.