The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Stretch]

Read through "The S&T; Swing" for the second time today with slightly increasing comprehension. Then went to the range and swung like a rusty gate.



At least I now understand how closed my attachment is and why my launch angles are so low. But I still find the concept of extension of the spine at the start of the backswing difficult to grasp.

[Zeph]

Read through "The S&T; Swing" for the second time today with slightly increasing comprehension. Then went to the range and swung like a rusty gate.

If tried all at once, I don't think anyone would expect better results. To change a golf swing, you have to take it one step at a time, one small detail at the time. Not just for one session, but for many, until it has become muscle memory.

[MMouse]

The Stack and Tilt swing has changed my game and I only just started.

Last round out I was beating my playing partner for 6 holes ( until I let a few mistakes derail me )

I was hitting farther and more accurately than ever, and I've just started working on it.

The one spot that I am not sure of is their short game techniques. I have my own ( more wristy ) and it's the best part of my game right now, so that may stay the same while I work on the swing,

[Zeph]

Haven't seen it myself, but it's been said that the short game DVD is not good.

In any case, I would not recommend using the wrists when chipping, if that is what you do. On a long pitch shot, flop shot or bunker shot, it's fine, but a small chip, no. The wrists are used to get more distance, on a small chip we don't want distance, we want accuracy. Try chipping at the range with 8 through lob wedge, see how far you can hit it without changing the angle of the wrists during the swing. Any shot inside that distance is possible to get without using the wrists. Trajectory is controlled by choice of club and set up position of the hands. The more forward they are, the lower ball flight. You can even hold the hands behind the ball and still hit a reasonable well chip, higher. Not recomended though, get a higher lofted club instead.

[Stretch]

More garbage on the range this morning, but more data too. With my S&T; swing (such as it is), I am a consistent front-side-of-the-circle pull hitter. First obvious issue was an excessively closed attachment -- getting the butt of the club up and forward at address helped immediately with contact and ball flight. The second flaw is more pernicious, as I think it's a very ingrained part of my old swing. Basically it feels like my hips turn a lot faster than they slide. It's very noticeable when hitting half shots (generally well) versus full shots (generally badly). Am I right in thinking this probably means I'm still getting too much weight back on the full swings, making it harder to move laterally toward the target through the shot? The right foot seems to be a giveaway of over-rotation, too, as I'm all the way up on the toe at the finish, with the heel almost starting to turn over to the target.

I must say the half shot S&T; drill really reveals the potential of this swing to me as a frustratingly short pull-fader. When hit crisp with just a half backswing, I'm easily longer than a full shot with the same club with my old swing.

[keb]

Had problems with my swing today. It might be that I am thinking about too many things in changing my swing. Any suggestions on points to emphasize and good way to progress into the Stack and Tild without getting overwelmed? Thanks.

[jhawker23]

For you successful S&T;'s, how long did it take you to achieve "full, successful conversion"? I'm making the commitment TODAY to go full S & T and not make some weird hybrid animal out of this thing. I've had so much inconsistency on the range because I'm trying to take the weight forward approach mixed with my traditional swing. It will be crisp one shot and the next I'm falling back to rear weight. I've just tried taking the easy way out thinking weight forward and the comfortable old swing will work. Nope. I need a commitment to work one way or another.

I know people see results right away but I'm interested in how long (practice hours/days) it has taken some of you to groove the S & T with consistency. I know there is continuous improvement but I believe you will know where I am going with this question. I'm somewhat frustrated that there isn't an instructor anywhere in CO. I think the learning curve could be greatly accelerated with a pro putting me into the proper positions as I struggle translating the book into feel. The video camera will help considerably as I'm also considering evolvr for help developing the swing.

[Primate]

I just watched the 1st disk and part of disk 2. It all seemed logical but it was a bit overwhelming. They throw a TON of information at you. I felt like I was back in college. As soon as the weather clears I will see what I have retained.

[MMouse]

No wrist in my chipping, just flops, pitches etc.

My driving again today was even better, but my irons went to crap. I kept hitting everything fat.

[Stretch]

Played my first S&T; round today at a par-71 CC course. Shot 85, hit 71% of fairways and 44% of GIR. Swing didn't feel all that great, but produced a consistent, light pull fade that kept me close to where I was aiming all the way round.

Afterward, I spent some time on their range trying to really feel the tilt toward the ball at take-away and started hitting some really beautiful, crisp relaxed shots.

Encouraging day.

[Stu.C]

First a statement and then a couple quick reasons why the driver seems to be a sticking point for some:

I have been practicing S&T; for some weeks now and have seen some great results with 'most' of my irons, the 3 remains a problem. My biggest frustration is, you guessed it, the driver. I listened in on the recent webinar and heard Mike and Andy address the driver issue by telling everyone listening to slide the hips forward more than they would with the irons etc. I, and I am sure many others, would dearly love to be able to watch an instructional video dedicated to 'The Driver and S&T;' explaining why this is such an ongoing issue. There are, I am sure you know, a gazillion posts in various places addressing this problem. If one exists that I have not been able to find it please point me there. If there isn't one you would be doing the s&t;'ers of this world a huge favour by making one or asking someone else to make one. This is, in my humble opinion, an issue that desperately needs to be put to rest.

[DannyG]

Ball Position & Width of Stance
S&T; uses the inside of the forward foot for ball position. It suggests 2-balls inside the forward heel for a standard middle-iron shot. (Ball Position page 49-50) Because of this, the width of the stance determines how far forward of center the ball will be. The wider the stance, the more forward the ball is, and the more forward the ball, the greater the tilt needs to be to get in the proper stacked position. So I have a two part question.
1. What is the proper width of stance for a mid-iron? By looking at, and measuring, various photos in book it looks like the center of the heels are below the outside width of the shoulders when at address position. (The width of the shoulders at address is less than standing straight with a shoulders back posture) I'm surprised that this isn't addressed in the book since it is the foundation of the S&T; technique.

2. When the book says "2-balls inside the left foot" does that mean the ball would have the space of the 2-balls in front of it (which makes the actual ball 3-balls back) or is the actual ball in the 2-ball position?

[iacas]

Ball Position & Width of Stance

That's only really true with a standard stance, which is probably a bit narrower than other stances.

I can safely say that Dave's almost never changed anyone's stance width, and the few he did were extreme cases. The ball positions remain the same as virtually every other swing - just about the middle of the stance with the wedge and at the left heel or so with the driver.

The wider the stance, the more forward the ball is, and the more forward the ball, the greater the tilt needs to be to get in the proper stacked position.

I'm not sure you understand the tilt properly... It almost sounds as if you think you're tilting towards the target or something.

The left tilt on the takeaway keeps your head and upper center from translating backwards. The extension of the spine does this too, but also keeps your spine "stacked." You can have "stacked" centers with no side tilt - your head will just be much higher and your shoulder turn flatter than it should be.

So I have a two part question.

It's a minimal difference. The proper width is virtually the same as it has been for years, and it varies with the player. Don't focus on the minutiae too much... just put your heels roughly shoulder width apart and point your toes out slightly.

2. When the book says "2-balls inside the left foot" does that mean the ball would have the space of the 2-balls in front of it (which makes the actual ball 3-balls back) or is the actual ball in the 2-ball position?

The first thing. Your ball, then two imaginary balls, then the edge of the left foot (heel).

[isampark]

I have been practicing S&T; for some weeks now and have seen some great results with 'most' of my irons, the 3 remains a problem.

I just started with S&T; about 2 weeks now, and I had medium success with my Drivers, 3 Wood, Long Irons.

By "medium success" I mean I was able to hit it fairly accurate but only 0~10 yards gain compared to conventional swing. Comparing this to my mid-short irons, I gained "reasonable success". My irons generally gained 15~25 yards gain and greater accuracy. First thing with Long Shafted clubs, is not to place the ball too forward . For driver, put it at left heel only and don't make it any forward than that. It will make you hit the ball on the forward portion of circle (after tangency point) and you have greater chance to hit slice. Second thing, is to "flatten the backswing" . Flattening the backswing makes longer arc radius (the distance between clubhead and the ball) and assuming your arms are straight after impact and follow through, it results the ball to be hit at or slightly before the tangency point, increasing the chance to hit straight, super-fade, or super-draw. Third thing, is to "keep arms straight" right after impact zone while maintaining the "flying wedge of right wrist" . This may be a bit difficult to achieve, but this is crucial in getting the straight/draw ball flight out of longer clubs. Try these out, this definitely helped me with longer clubs.

[isampark]

I just started with S&T; about 2 weeks now, and I had medium success with my Drivers, 3 Wood, Long Irons.

I just found out simpler tip that could work with "keeping the arms straight".

In my attempts to keep arms straight, sometimes I would pull the shot or get pull-hook pattern by swinging too much inside-out. Instead, I tried to keep the distance between my elbows throughout the swing till finish. This helped improving consistency greatly and the ball flight as well. The arms comes naturally straight after impact automatically as well.

[BallStriker]

Ball Position & Width of Stance

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance. Yes, it was a lofted club (maybe an 8 or 9 iron), but it looked like he was just a couple of balls in front of his right foot (very narrow stance, but certainly back of center).

Anyway, being a person that has played the ball well back my stance for years, are there fundamental problems with the S&T; if you play the ball back in your stance -- mine has moved up a bit with the focus on keeping my head position still and maintaining the feeling of keeping my weight forward, but still feel most comfortable with the ball back of center with everything from about my 6 iron and higher (my 3-5 are generally played about center of my stance, with my driver just inside left foot). Thanks.

[mchepp]

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance. Yes, it was a lofted club (maybe an 8 or 9 iron), but it looked like he was just a couple of balls in front of his right foot (very narrow stance, but certainly back of center).

I would caution you to be very careful in watching videos of Mike Bennett from clinics. Often he is trying to demonstrate a particular shot and may not be hitting the ball with his stock pattern. When you attend a clinic he will hit hooks, draws, over-draws, pushes, etc trying to demonstrate different things. Without being there you cannot tell what he was trying to do with this shot.

If you want to see a generic ball position better you check out some videos of Charlie to see his ball position. But even with that, I would say that in general you might need to experiment on what works best for you. Many times I will see guys start with the ball further back in the stance because it can be easier to draw from that position.

[iacas]

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance.

Mike doesn't play the ball back of center. I know what Michael is saying below, but even when he's demonstrating the biggest pushes and the biggest draws, the farthest he'll go back (admittedly with a mid-iron, like a 6-iron) is center of stance.

I don't know if I know which video you're talking about, though. Could you post it here?