The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by jackbear

Hi mvmac, I am jackbear, South korean.

I have practiced S&T; swing for 2 months. In the video, during takeaway, Charlie's left hand is not close to buckle belt compare to the the following picture.

Is there difference Iron and Wood takeaway especially to the point of the space of hands and torso?

Hi Jackbear, pause the video at 42 seconds, very similar positions.  Charlie's hands were just further away from him at set-up due to the club being longer.  In the pictures he is hitting a short iron.  Idea is that the hands go inward, over the toes.

[jackbear]

Thanks you. I will keep in mind "the hands go inward, over the toes".

[Zmiles]

I adopted the S&T; at the end of last season and have made dramatic improvements in my consistency. However, I now skyrocket my drives and wonder if S&T; recommends teeing the ball lower i.e. so ball is NOT 1/2 above top of driver?

[nevets88]

Some more SnT observations:

If I don't unflex my back knee, I tend to move off the ball or take a more upright backswing. Straightening the back knee, I fell like I'm making more of a turn in place, circular.

Not exactly SnT, but because I was a long time flipper, if I let the lead hand dominate and the back (right hand) come along for the ride, I get a more in-out swing, close the clubface faster, instead of big blocks to the right, I get draws. The Ben Hogan 5 fundamentals can't hit the ball too hard with the right hand doesn't work for me or I'm misinterpreting it.

A tendency to take the lead knee back, which also makes you move off the ball. If I think knee down, it doesn't go back.

[superbarnsley]

I tend to tee it lower, with maybe a 1/4 of the ball over the club as opposed to 1/2.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by superbarnsley

I tend to tee it lower, with maybe a 1/4 of the ball over the club as opposed to 1/2.

I find with S&T; the range auto-feeder is too high for every club. 4h through to 58 degree wedge is 100% too high all the time and 3W is a mixed bag; sometimes it's fine but other times the club is just too low at impact and it balloons and scuffs the top of the club.

On course I use orange 5mm castle tees for everything except my 3W which I use the red 10mm castle tees for.

[nevets88]

Does the following make sense? I tend to hit towards the heel. Always bugged me. I've been working on getting the hips forward and straightening the front (and back) legs and the hip tuck. I found at the range today that the more I exaggerate the straightening of the legs, the more contact cones towards the toe. Not sure if I am straightening more or earlier or both. I thought the motion would make me hit fat, but not so, Perhaps because I'm sliding my hips forward as well. When I don't slide, but straighten, then fat. Anyways, does the above sound about right or am I totally off base?

[kurisu]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Does the following make sense?

I tend to hit towards the heel. Always bugged me. I've been working on getting the hips forward and straightening the front (and back) legs and the hip tuck.

I found at the range today that the more I exaggerate the straightening of the legs, the more contact cones towards the toe. Not sure if I am straightening more or earlier or both.

I thought the motion would make me hit fat, but not so, Perhaps because I'm sliding my hips forward as well. When I don't slide, but straighten, then fat.

Anyways, does the above sound about right or am I totally off base?

That would mirror my experience as well.

If I manage to maintain a little flex in the front knee at/until after impact, and if my backswing was not too wonky, then I'll get a nice crisp downblow that is pushed/drawn.

If I straighten too fast/early, I hit fat/thin (basically same thing).

Sliding forward requires some flex in both knees at impact. If you post up, the hips will spin, and in my experience, I then will hit a little behind the ball, and with the longer clubs get a cut shot or worse a push slice.

Unfortunately I still haven't found a "trigger" that will help me slide the hips consistently. Lower body transition is probably the hardest part of any style of swing. You may want to try the "crush the can" drill in the S&T; book. Do that with punch shots first and if it works for you, try with full swings.

[iacas]

I have nothing to add except that, yes, both of you are likely correct for yourself.

If the right knee flexes towards the ball the path will tend to go left and impact will come towards the heel a little. Straightening the knees (particularly the left knee) sooner in the swing will inhibit the slide and can send the path slightly right or slightly left depending on how early and how rapidly it straightens.

The "hips forward/straighten legs/tuck butt" sequence is perhaps the toughest piece. For awhile, nevets and kurisu, you could spend some time practicing with them pre-set a little forwards, just to feel where they need to get to, and for each of you, feel when you need to begin straightening the knees.

Stretch has to feel the "jumping" from the top of his backswing. Others will "feel" it at impact or even slightly afterwards. Some will feel it around P6 (technically that's when the left knee will begin to straighten and forward sliding of the hips slows). Experiment a little and find your own feel for that piece, and perhaps begin that experimentation by pre-setting and straightening (my "famous" little hips forward/hit and stop video does this a little, but the knees don't straighten as much as they can in that one, so I'm not including it now).

[nevets88]

That was very useful about the left knee causing heel hits.

I notice my head goes down if I start the swing with the left knee going down a bit much, but instead if I don't let the left knee go down initially and just prevent it from going too far back further in the backswing, I still get a centered pivot without my head going down as much. Straightening my back leg a little more also feels, I dunno, more centered as well.

Here's a vid of the preset drill with an exaggerated leg straightening or lifting the belt I found useful.

[carpediem4300]

Iacas

I have read nearly 30 pages of this thread today alone, and done no work at all!!!

The thing i have always struggles with is the basic fundamentals of the swing, and consistency, and i think i have gradually made my way to a sort of S&T;/Classic swing hybrid, I have always tried to maintain my lower body and my centre position through the back swing, but also maintain it through the downswing, which i then turned into a hip rotation rather than a hip slide and rotate motion,.

I undoubtedly believe this is has lead to an awful swing full of sequential errors and the reason why I am to an extent good at hitting off the matts at the range, then rubbish off the grass and the course.

After reading through these pages i noticed one thing,.....your avatar,.....throughout all the time i have played golf i have struggled with the backswing and takeaway the most, never ending up in the right position, so remember your avatar and the 3 steps of "stand up",.."tilt",...."rotate" i headed to the work toiled and stood infront of the mirror, did the drill, and jesus H christ it looked very similar to your avatar,

I did this several times before taking address position and conducting my backswing (granted with no club as yet) and boom, pretty much everytime i ended up at the same position at the top,....remembering to keep my head inline with a mark there was on the floor.

I then started practice swinging by leading with the hips forward and follwing the blur of my hands i noticed it was in-to-out, and extremely repeatable

now theres no telling how i will get on at the range and my club fitting tonight, but jsut the fact i can stand in the mirror and repeat something consistantly has finally put the confidence into me that i could progress with this game, i will report back tomorrow to let you know how i got on,....as a seperate note im going to be on a launch monitor etc as im having my clubs fitted so will be interesting to see what that says!

[nevets88]

That was very useful about the left knee causing heel hits.

I notice my head goes down if I start the swing with the left knee going down a bit much, but instead if I don't let the left knee go down initially and just prevent it from going too far back further in the backswing, I still get a centered pivot without my head going down as much. Straightening my back leg a little more also feels, I dunno, more centered as well.

Here's a vid of the preset drill with an exaggerated leg straightening or lifting the belt I found useful.

Did I say left knee, I meant right knee - heel hits - interesting - that is me, I spin out. I was doing the forward preset and flying wedge drills last night and while I hit it pretty good up to a 4 iron, bowed wrist, draw, solid contact, I am having problems with the fairway woods. My good shots are similar to the irons, but I don't hit as many good shots and more fat shots. You can do the above drills with woods too right? I played nine this morning and swung horrendously, mostly fat shots because I don't trust my swing, spending too much time on the range and still managed a 40 because the fats and pushes are not bad misses. I hope I can feel comfortable with the swing by the end of the summer.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

The thing i have always struggles with is the basic fundamentals of the swing, and consistency, and i think i have gradually made my way to a sort of S&T;/Classic swing hybrid, I have always tried to maintain my lower body and my centre position through the back swing, but also maintain it through the downswing, which i then turned into a hip rotation rather than a hip slide and rotate motion,.

I undoubtedly believe this is has lead to an awful swing full of sequential errors and the reason why I am to an extent good at hitting off the matts at the range, then rubbish off the grass and the course.

Mats do let you get away with more, yes. The "rotate, rotate" or "turn in a barrel" swing is "okay" on the backswing. It's not great for the downswing. As you seem to know...

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

now theres no telling how i will get on at the range and my club fitting tonight, but jsut the fact i can stand in the mirror and repeat something consistantly has finally put the confidence into me that i could progress with this game, i will report back tomorrow to let you know how i got on,....as a seperate note im going to be on a launch monitor etc as im having my clubs fitted so will be interesting to see what that says!

Let us know, yes, definitely. Video record if you can - even a phone video is better than nothing. Good luck! Let us know!

[carpediem4300]

Hi Iacas Had my clubs tested and the length is fine but lie needs flattening out 2 degrees as im hitting far to close to the heel In regards to s&t;,......well it was varied until the pro showed me how shallow my club path was on the back swing and shot my the effect it had on the down swing (pusj, push slice and shank) Once he steepend my take away i started hitting straight and draws! Amd the sound of contact was immense and the feeling so crisp, needles to say i need better clubs and not my crappy cheap ones, but as i cant afford them i eckon fitting these will do for now The only issue i found was my takeaway improved tremendously but i was still tending to rotate the hips on the downswing and forgeting to slide them towards the target, this resulted in push slices and fat shots, but when i remember to slide and let the club "drop in" i just cant begin to describe how nice it felt I started hitting of the grass and i have never taken divots as a golfer, EVER but when i got it right i was taking nice divots and the ball flight was awesome, also loving the tthhhwwaacckkk sound instead of my usual swooossshhh sound Only problem is when i get it wrong i either fat/thin/push it........but hey, a few hours implementing a new swing ill take a 50/50 succes rate! Im definately going to stick with it and hope to improve once i get my irona back, can i ask though on any tipa for sliding my hips rather than rotating them and causing lots of issues? Will get a video of my swing asap and post an appropriate swing thread :)

[nevets88]

OK, more range work - I found out more out my heel (my golf foot fetish ) tendencies, especially on the woods.

It turns out the swing plane was a little steep and my back knee was kicking at the ball. I haven't been using video lately, hot and lazy days.

So if I do the hands deep, feel like my backswing is around me rather than picking up, plus kick that back knee towards the target, away from the ball, the contact point is more away from the heel and I can do the flying wedge drill with my fairway woods.

With a combination of deep hands and really kicking that left knee in, I can really get the contact point on the toe. Not that I want to, but I want to know the hows and whys of the swing. It's scary how your old swing comes back without noticing.

It really bothered me on the course all those heel hits, I got alot of weak push slices or fades which actually didn't hurt me that much scorewise, but technically it bothered me and then you're afraid to hit the ball and you hit fat.

Also what I noticed with SnT is your bad shots if you commit to the hip tuck aren't that bad, you can work with them if you have a short game. If I hit fat, one, two clubs short. Workable.

Anyways, hopes this helps anyone else having similar problems.

[nevets88]

Question: With regards to the rear knee kicking out, when you see pros who kick their knee out, how to they keep from spinning out? If they're making a compensating move, what is it? I was watching the US Open today and Miller noted how Karie Webb's heel really kicked out to the right, the total opposite of banking.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Question: With regards to the rear knee kicking out, when you see pros who kick their knee out, how to they keep from spinning out? If they're making a compensating move, what is it? I was watching the US Open today and Miller noted how Karie Webb's heel really kicked out to the right, the total opposite of banking.

Quite often, a lot of them will "spin out." Consider the number of times you've heard of pros "clearing the hips."

I can't speak specifically because some pros fake more secondary axis tilt but get the handle down quickly to ensure good contact. Some do other things to shift the plane line right to offset the spinning hips. Others do other things.

In general, though, if the pros who sag their trail knee would bank the foot and not crash through the P1 knee wall, they'd hit the ball higher.

LPGA women, in general, use their hips very poorly and are very "spin (rotation)-oriented" golfers.

[mchepp]

For the experts. I know that the model has the player at 90 degrees of wrist c*ck at P3. If a player came to you with a big float load where they had a very late set of the wrists, so for example the player was at 115 at P3 but then float loaded the club into good positions, would the idea to be to remove that? What is the reasoning behind the 90 degrees of wrist c*ck at P3?