The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[nevets88]

JetFan1983 - I took my first lesson from Steve last September I think, stopped playing for 6 months and took some more lessons in spring. Great instructor. If there's one bummer about SnT, it is the travelling to get to out to Jersey, but at least that there is someone within a reasonable driving distance.

Just wanted to say that the pattern's instructors (also worked with Erik and James) got rid of my shanks/heel tendencies which has dogged me for years. No other instructor outside of SnT has been able to fix my shank problem. The turn in a circle and low point forward was helpful and the last piece was the pressure point under the right armpit and also lowering the handle on the exit (I think I had it too high). Haven't had a shank in a month and I easily self correct if I do because I understand why.

So I think it's been about 8 months I've been completely SnT and it is only recently that it doesn't feel weird and the swing is more instinctual. I wonder how long it usually takes people to "get it". I'm a slow learner and for me, the backswing, the tuck and transition from the top was hardest to pick up.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

In 2008, my first year, I went through four "toe up, toe up" guys in my search for the right teacher. Then I just gave up. Thankfully, I found this site and learned how to tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad one. That makes the search a whole lot easier. Then I found Steve and this was our first season working together. I didn't get to see him as much as I wanted, but we put in a lot of good work in the time we had. How long have you been working with him?

[jwalker497]

Originally Posted by nevets88

JetFan1983 - I took my first lesson from Steve last September I think, stopped playing for 6 months and took some more lessons in spring. Great instructor. If there's one bummer about SnT, it is the travelling to get to out to Jersey, but at least that there is someone within a reasonable driving distance.

Just wanted to say that the pattern's instructors (also worked with Erik and James) got rid of my shanks/heel tendencies which has dogged me for years. No other instructor outside of SnT has been able to fix my shank problem. The turn in a circle and low point forward was helpful and the last piece was the pressure point under the right armpit and also lowering the handle on the exit (I think I had it too high). Haven't had a shank in a month and I easily self correct if I do because I understand why.

So I think it's been about 8 months I've been completely SnT and it is only recently that it doesn't feel weird and the swing is more instinctual. I wonder how long it usually takes people to "get it". I'm a slow learner and for me, the backswing, the tuck and transition from the top was hardest to pick up.

nevets88, do you know Steve's last name?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by jwalker497

nevets88, do you know Steve's last name?

http://stackandtiltgolfswing.com/academy-–-instruction/

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by jwalker497

nevets88, do you know Steve's last name?

Here's his cell if anyone wants to check him out. I think he's heading back to Florida soon though. He's only in NJ from like late April to I think sometime in October.

Just tell him you found him through the Sandtrap Forum. He knows Erik.

609-238-5149

Originally Posted by nevets88

JetFan1983 - I took my first lesson from Steve last September I think, stopped playing for 6 months and took some more lessons in spring. Great instructor. If there's one bummer about SnT, it is the travelling to get to out to Jersey, but at least that there is someone within a reasonable driving distance.

Yea I know what you mean. When traffic on I-95 is bad, it takes me sometimes two hours to get there. It's 90 minutes with no traffic. It's a hike but it's totally worth it. But that's probably why I only had six lessons with him this season. Wish it was more.

Still, I know exactly what you're talking about. The only difference is the changes came really quickly for me. That said, I had a lot more room for improvement then you did.

The best part about working with a good instructor is when I hit a bad shot, I can correct it immediately instead of in the past where it would take me 3 or 4 holes to figure out what was wrong....or I just wouldn't figure it out at all and the whole round was miserable. That never happens anymore.

[Mr. Desmond]

Any hints or on course swing thoughts for keeping the weight on the front side?

I can keep it on the front side on the range but fail miserably on the course ... result is low and left ballflight as club hits ground, then ball.

ugh.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Any hints or on course swing thoughts for keeping the weight on the front side?

I can keep it on the front side on the range but fail miserably on the course ... result is low and left ballflight as club hits ground, then ball.

ugh.

It could be a loss of wrist angles as well as the weight not being forward enough.

For me, making this change was only made possible with a great camera and my instructor by my side, coaching me along the way as I struggled to hit ball after ball at the range.

My big issue was the shoulders turning too far above the plane on the downswing, so feeling my "right shoulder downward" helps me create axis tilt. Also, for some reason, it corresponds well with me pushing my hips forward too ("right shoulder down" as a lone swing thought doesn't work if the hips aren't pushing forward). The hips pushing forward allows the axis tilt to even have a chance of being created. It also allows the shoulders to turn on plane so you can hit more outward at the ball.

So for me, pushing the hips forward while feeling my right shoulder moving downward as opposed to more "baseball-style" is a swing thought I use.

All that said, the most important swing thought for me is "flat left wrist" or "bowing the lead wrist" or "palmar flexion of the lead wrist." I can have my weight well forward, but if my dreaded flip decides to show up, I have to abandon all swing thoughts involving my weight shift and just going straight to the "flat left wrist" swing thought.

I guess it's a pretty slippery slope of juggling swing thoughts but it works much better for me than my previous swing thoughts, all of which had no relation to each other, nor were any of them biomechanically correct. The flat left wrist, the hips forward, and the right shoulder down (for righties) are all inter-related thoughts.

Granted, I never was able to make these changes on my own. I needed an instructor there. He would be filming me constantly. I would hit a shank and think it was a terrible swing and then he'd say "You did it! Come look!" and I'd walk over and see on the LCD screen that I actually was doing it, I just didn't make good contact.

That's the kind of feedback I needed. I needed to know when I was doing it right, even if I didn't make good contact (the body movements and sequencing was correct despite poor ball-to-clubface contact).

Just like Erik quoted from Homer Kelly recently:

The Three Imperatives and Essentials operate to correct faulty procedures. So, if they seem elusive, it is invariably because you are trying to execute them while you hit the ball - in your accustomed manner. That must be reversed. Learn to do those things even if you miss the ball - until you no longer miss it. There is no successful alternative (3-B).

Hopefully I'm not the only one to respond to this question since I used a lot of feel related descriptions to explain myself....that's a bit of a slippery slope as well.

[nevets88]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Yea I know what you mean. When traffic on I-95 is bad, it takes me sometimes two hours to get there. It's 90 minutes with no traffic. It's a hike but it's totally worth it. But that's probably why I only had six lessons with him this season. Wish it was more.

Still, I know exactly what you're talking about. The only difference is the changes came really quickly for me. That said, I had a lot more room for improvement then you did.

The problem is I have to go through the city. That just kills me in terms of time, especially crosstown - that is just killer. Plus I hate driving through the city - stressful. Yes, 90 minutes no traffic, but usually at least 2 hours.

Hey, SnT guys, get someone out in Long Island, east of the Hudson. She or he will get a ton of students. Seriously.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I guess it's a pretty slippery slope of juggling swing thoughts but it works much better for me than my previous swing thoughts, all of which had no relation to each other, nor were any of them biomechanically correct. The flat left wrist, the hips forward, and the right shoulder down (for righties) are all inter-related thoughts.

I guess a swing thought doesn't have to be biomechanically correct for it to be a good swing thought. If it gets you to do what you must do in order to hit the ball better, then that's just fine by me too.

I've seen a tour pro use "straight back, straight through" as his driver thought, but I don't know if his problem is taking it too far inside and that's why that works for him.

Originally Posted by nevets88

Hey, SnT guys, get someone out in Long Island, east of the Hudson. She or he will get a ton of students. Seriously.

I agree, but it is kind of cool how hard they are to find. It's like buying Wal-mart stock in the early 70s

...okay, maybe Walmart is a bad random stock to be using since they're nothing like Walmart! But hopefully you get my point.

[Mr. Desmond]

Thanks much ... that helps.

I have a tripod (will leave it in the car trunk) and will put the camera on it, the next time at the range.

A couple of issues for me, it is tough to lower the lead shoulder sufficiently going back so that the plane is steeper. After 15 years of the flatter swing plane, it is a difficult transition. I am trying to stack the front side going back, and on the range have some success. On the course, I undoubtedly move off the ball. At the top, I feel too much weight on the back foot and can only sigh as I start the downswing -- it's as if I know disaster is about to occur. Knowing that, I am probably not aggressive with the hip slide and fail to get more weight frontward -- the "crush the can" with the front foot action.

And yes, right shoulder down ...

It is a transition. I have experience with a couple of instructors in N. Texas, but one of them is Haney, the other is TGM ... not much here on S&T; to my knowledge.

So this website and the S&T; book is a great help. Camera work to follow.

Thanks again, JetFan, and other members who make contributions.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

On the course, I undoubtedly move off the ball. At the top, I feel too much weight on the back foot and can only sigh as I start the downswing -- it's as if I know disaster is about to occur.

I have this miss as well at times, this backswing issue. I was actually able to fix this one without my teacher. I took my set-up with my head against a wall and no club in my hands. I took my backswing. I knew the following had to take place in order to stay centered:

1) The left shoulder goes downward, on a steep angle. But the head cannot dip forward.

2) The left knee (for righties) does not bank inward. It moves straight out in front of you.

3) The hands move inward (side-note: I would dorsiflex my lead wrist at the top and didn't know this is why I would hit a weak push-slice (I was flipping at impact too. The teacher fixed this and flattened my shaft angle (it was way too steep previously))).

I used to dip my head a lot when I started to turn my shoulders steeper. With my head against the wall, I could feel instantly when it was moving forward. Feeling the correct backswing actually felt to me like I was about to reverse pivot. It took a bit of time (and I probably looked like a jackass doing it, but at least I was by myself ) but eventually, I was able to stay more centered, more often. You could try that.

And it doesn't hurt to brush up and watch the part about the stack and tilt backswing, even though I'm sure you've seen this video.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

It is a transition. I have experience with a couple of instructors in N. Texas, but one of them is Haney

Yup, I remember your posts about Haney on the Rush Limbaugh thread. Those were great reads.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Thanks again, JetFan, and other members who make contributions.

Appreciate it!

EDIT: Oh yea, this video Erik made a while back was helpful to me too, as far as understanding the backswing.

[Mr. Desmond]

Thanks, JetFan, I will review the videos. I haven't seen either one of them. Must find others....

(As to Haney, I probably rode him and his instructors a little too hard. The only thing I can take from them is keep your back to the ball and swing to right field.)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Just tell him you found him through the Sandtrap Forum. He knows Erik.

Yeah he does. I taught Steve almost everything he knows........

... about Mac OS X.

[mvmac]

S&T; gets a win!

http://www.pgatour.com/leaderboards/current/s615/

[nevets88]

Who teaches Brad Faxon? Does he use Aimpoint too?

Quick question on hitting the ball low. I tried moving the ball forward and closing the face but I tend to hit pull draws although they are lower.

But I prefer to hit the ball a little lower, like 20-30 ft and I find that back in the stance with face open works for me. Does that make sense?

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Who teaches Brad Faxon? Does he use Aimpoint too?

Quick question on hitting the ball low. I tried moving the ball forward and closing the face but I tend to hit pull draws although they are lower.

But I prefer to hit the ball a little lower, like 20-30 ft and I find that back in the stance with face open works for me. Does that make sense?

Yea it makes perfect sense. Slightly back in the stance makes it easier to hit a draw, since you're hitting it earlier in the arc and more down and out at the ball.

To keep it lower, you can just deloft more by leaning the shaft forward more i.e. palmar flexing more, and then having a lower finish.

[JetFan1983]

I guess you can hit it low with it forward in your stance if you're playing a pull fade.

[iacas]

FWIW, I prefer to hit the ball lower by remaining in flexion more. Tuck the butt a bit less.

Moving the ball back isn't really a good thing, and "trying to palmar flex more or lean the shaft forward more" can cause problems. Too much shaft lean isn't as efficient as "the right amount of shaft lean."

Of course, if you're flipping at it a little and adding loft that way, then yeah, "more shaft lean" is a good thing. ;-)

[JetFan1983]

Thanks again, Erik. I wasn't sure if I was right when I posted that, but figured you or someone would correct me if I was wrong. Thanks again, as always.