Mickelson, Harrington, Daly using PING wedges for grooves. Unfair advantage?

[Fourputt]

I think did it more to get back at the USGA for the ruling against the new callaway clubs than anything. They developed grooves within the specs they said then said they were non-conforming clubs. I am sure that rubbed him the wrong way and this was a way.

How could they be made to specification and still be non-conforming? There clearly had to be something there that was NOT conforming. My guess is that they tried to push the limits too far and over reached the specs. The USGA doesn't just reject a club capriciously.

[iacas]

How could they be made to specification and still be non-conforming? There clearly had to be something there that was NOT conforming.

Not to jump in, but Callaway says they submitted a club that

conformed and yet was rejected (i.e. not approved ). http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/au...about-grooves/

Source: GolfWeek “Our grooves are conforming, but they’re not being approved,’’ Mickelson said. “Which makes me think something funny is going on. If they’re changing the rule three months from implementation, they’re incompetent.’’

Again, the USGA's side has not been heard so far as I know.

[Leftygolfer]

Not to jump in, but Callaway says they submitted a club that

Thanks Erik. I knew I didn't just make it up.

[Acropo]

Not to jump in, but Callaway says they submitted a club that

Interesting, and I think it throws new light on his decision to use Pings at the weekend.

[zeg]

Well, the USGA is as free to speak up about their side as Callaway is to present theirs. Hopefully this will become clear eventually.

Even if his purpose is to give a middle finger to the USGA, the rules still make the club he used explicitly (and NOT via a "loophole") legal, so the motivation is 100% irrelevant to this discussion.

[Chas]

" McCarron issued a statement Monday in which he wanted to clarify that while he believes "it's cheating" for Mickelson and anyone else to use the Ping wedges, "I never called Phil Mickelson a cheater.""

All that this statement clarifies is the evident fact that McCarron is too dense to understand the simplest of syllogisms. The less we hear from him further on the matter the better IMO, at least until he starts making sense.

-------

The developing story .....

"Padraig Harrington showed up at Riviera Country Club near Los Angeles on Tuesday, preparing to make his PGA Tour season debut, and he stepped right into the controversy bubbling up over grooves, rules, 20-year-old Ping wedges and the spirit of the game.
Harrington also arrived at Riviera with a couple of the controversial Ping wedges in his bag.

"I did some good testing (Monday). Unfortunately the testing showed up exactly what you would expect, and there's a significant difference," Harrington said during a news conference Tuesday in advance of this week's Northern Trust Open. "I think that significant difference depends on the players.

"Some players don't find that there was a difference between the old V-groove and box groove. Other players find that there is a big difference. I think they'll find that some players don't feel it's necessary in their game. Other players who are probably a little bit more aggressive do feel like this is something that they need.""

[Fourputt]

Not to jump in, but Callaway says they submitted a club that

So they say.... and they certainly don't have any axe to grind...

I believe that as much as I believe an unbiased equipment review by a magazine that is supported by advertising. I need to hear it from an independent source before I'll buy it.

[Leftygolfer]

Callaway spent millions to develop grooves to the specs that USGA said was conforming yet still spun more than what the USGA wanted so they said no thank you. I highly doubt the top people at Callaway spent money developing these grooves if they weren't to the specifications the USGA said was conforming. They performed too well. How stupid. I hope every player uses the old Ping wedges.

[onthehunt526]

we're talking about the Ping Eye2's U-grooves from 1988 I take it?

[iacas]

Callaway spent millions to develop grooves to the specs that USGA said was conforming yet still spun more than what the USGA wanted so they said no thank you. I highly doubt the top people at Callaway spent money developing these grooves if they weren't to the specifications the USGA said was conforming.

Yeah, that's Callaway's side of the story. We don't really know, because the USGA hasn't said. Callaway, so far as I can tell, never shared what the groove design was (despite every other manufacturer being able to measure the things themselves), which you'd think they'd have done if they truly conformed. Kind of a way to plead their case to the others (the writers, etc.) in the industry. They never did - they just talked about it - so that's why I'm still doubtful as to whether they truly conformed or not. I have a hard time believing any grooves that were 30% smaller and had less sharp edge radii could really get to the same spin rates as before.

[Three Putt]

It's stupid....really

With the robotic cnc milling machines of today you can count on one thing...they will find a way to make them work and spin. They might wear out after 2 rounds, but they will work for the pro's...its bullsh-t.

Let them play! Last time I checked Mr. Bomb and Wedge (Bubba Watson) hasn't won a tournament.

[iacas]

If

this article is to be believed, I think the USGA was right to call the Callaway wedges non-conforming:

In the run-up to Torrey he spent weeks testing various wedges with the help of Callaway's pointy heads, and according to Randy Peterson, the company's director of fitting and instruction, the Eye2 that Mickelson put in play — a virtually brand-new 60-degree L wedge bent to 64 degrees — imparted 25% to 30% more spin than any of the Callaway wedges with the new grooves. Clearly that extra bite can be advantageous, but using the Eye2 was also a chance for the self-righteous Mickelson to raise a symbolic middle finger to the USGA. Since last summer Phil has been feuding with the blue coats over a groove developed by Callaway that was called the multiangle wall (MAW) design.

So we still only have Callaway talking, and they may have heard what they wanted to hear. Maybe the USGA said it violated the spirit of the rule, maybe it didn't.

Last August, subsequent to Callaway's submitting the MAW for approval, the USGA issued a clarification, putting in place additional requirements to "define with greater precision permissible groove geometries." Just like that, the MAW was rendered nonconforming and Callaway had to start over. Mickelson publicly blasted the USGA, and that same month at the Barclays Championship he stood toe-to-toe on the Liberty National practice green with Dick Rugge, the USGA's senior technical director, for an animated 45-minute conversation.

So long as I know, the Rules of Golf have contained an image like this and the wording I'll cite here for quite some time.

Source: Appendix II, 5(c), i Grooves must have a symmetrical cross-section and have sides which do not converge (see Fig. XI).

FWIW that 30° was the result of the original PING settlement. The martini thing seems to me almost exactly like the "converging" image. I have a 2008-2009 rules book handy and it has the same exact picture (page 136).

[iacas]

The martini thing seems to me almost exactly like the "converging" image. I have a 2008-2009 rules book handy and it has the same exact picture (page 136).

Maybe I read the martini thing wrong, and maybe it's not upside down like the first groove shown in this image:

But the second one (with the stem) wouldn't be allowed either, as it's not "plain," and if you take the stem off it's just a "V" groove, basically. So now I'm confused. I'm not sure what the MAW groove looked like, but I have a hard time imagining one that I think would be "conforming."

[iacas]

Yet another statement from PING:

PING Chairman & CEO John Solheim issued the following statement tonight after the PGA Tour Players Meeting at the Northern Trust Open:

“PGA Tour Commissioner Finchem and I had a brief discussion this afternoon and he shared his belief that the 1993 settlement agreement allowed his organization to utilize the protocol to consider a special rule that would ban PING EYE2 irons and wedges. While we strongly disagree with their interpretation of the agreement, we agreed further dialogue on the topic was healthy. We hope to speak again in the next week or so. I’ve also been in contact with the USGA and expect to meet with them as well.”

[Tiger Spuds]

You'd think the USGA and PGA would have been discussing these issues together with Ping in the last few years they've been planning the changes.Surely they didn't think that no players would know about and try to take advantage of the legal ruling.It's all a bit shoddy.

[iacas]

Surely they didn't think that no players would know about and try to take advantage of the legal ruling.

I don't think it's that they didn't think the pros would

know - it's explicitly stated, after all - I think it's that they didn't think pros would play a 20-year-old wedge.

[Tiger Spuds]

I don't think it's that they didn't think the pros would

Well, there's clearly an advantage to these clubs, old as they are, or the Pro's wouldn't bother using them.

Padraig Harrington : "I did some good testing (Monday). Unfortunately the testing showed up exactly what you would expect, and there's a significant difference.I think that significant difference depends on the players." For better players only, maybe.But there's an advantage nonetheless.I just find it incredible that the governing bodies didn't foresee players going to these lenghts to gain that advantage, perhaps they underestimated the players in that regard.Perhaps they could have requested that all the players agree not to use those clubs on principal, as Padraig suggested.It comes across as though they didn't think this rule change through, and now they have to deal with the messy consequences. That said, I'm sure they'll come to some arrangement and it'll have blown over in a few weeks.I'd be surprised to see anyone on Tour using Eye 2's past the midway point of the season.

[Shanks A Million]

I don't think technology has much to do with wedges. Grooves are grooves, no matter when they were made, so long as they are wide, sharp, and deep. The Ping Eye 2s have big, sharp square grooves on them. What modern advancement can top that?

And as to my earlier ideas, I can just imagine it now:

Nick Faldo: " Allright Peter, how far does Mickleson have? "
Peter Kostis: " He's got 87 yards, this is a sand wedge. "
Nick Faldo: " Allright, looks like he's got the club up his arse. Ooh, nice and sweaty in there, very sticky. "
Peter Kostis: " Bones has found a nice patch of dry sand, he's sniffing the club to make sure... "
David Feherty: " Ouch, I crashed my bike! "
Nick Faldo: " Ok, now he's got the club ready, notice this new raw finish the players are using these days... "
Peter Kostis: " No Nick, that club was Chrome on the first hole... "
Nick Faldo: " Oh my... I guess it's been used on one too many holes... "

Man I'm an idiot.