Re-Examining Advice: Hitting Up with the Driver

[jamo]

I believe there was a Golf Magazine article on this last year, saying that a descending blow is actually good, even with the driver. They did a study and got data and stats for distance. Then, of course, they published an article the following month saying that you MUST MUST MUST swing up on the ball, though it had no statistical backing, just the (insert famous golf instructor name here) seal of approval.

I would venture to guess that nearly all PGA TOUR players ( and a majority of teachers, just a guess) hit down on the driver.

I think that people say hit up on the driver as an indirect way of saying that you should swing in-to-out, instead of over-the-top, which is much steeper. It is much harder to go over-the-top if you try to hit up on the ball. I don't think most players actually do hit up on it, but it can be a goo swing thought, just know you can't attain it.

I actually had a stretch in the summer of 2008 where i would take divots with my driver, even though i teed it up fairly high. I was playing in a tournament with a very good player (all state as a freshman) who was several years younger than me, but clearly had a good knowledge of the golf swing. He was one of those kids that eats, sleeps, and breathes golf. His parents even held him back a year in school so he would be a better player. Anyway, he couldn't figure out why i took divots, and he repeatedly questioned me on it, probably because i was driving it so well. Anyway, he just couldn't understand it, so he must have been taught it somewhere, in one of his various lessons.

[Elvisliveson]

Look, it's called "re-examining" for a reason, too. I'm not 100% sold on this, but it's compelling evidence the way PGA Tour players play golf and I'm definitely leaning this way. The physics make sense to me too - left arm = low point and all that...

Exactly, I'm not about to swallow something hook, line and sinker just because a study with a machine says so. I'll look to the guys who have to do this for a living first.

I wish I had you in my corner last Speptember for a thread in the Golf Channel forums where a guy was trying to tell me Arnold Palmer's swing theories hold no merit since his idea of hitting down on the ball has been debunked.

[Shanks A Million]

I agree with many here that most golf advice is for the benefit of hackers. Let me tell you something about my driver swing.

I actually do hit up on my drives (1.5° or so), I like to carry the ball about 270, and let it land fairly soft. The reason I switched to hit up on my driver was due to two factors. First, my launch angle was too low, around 10° when my ideal was around 11-12°. Second, I used to get a nasty snap hook with the driver. I used to hit my driver from the inside severely, and send it out nearly 3° or more to the right of my target line, where it would hook back almost instantly. When I combined the two into a new driver swing, I went from averaging 246 on a good drive to plowing them over 280 (I would need to get back onto a monitor to give you the correct number.) I put the ball way forward in my stance, so far that I have to swing over the top a little. This gives me a nice controllable fade instead of an unpredictable hook.

But unlike most people, I have a totally different driver swing . That's probably very uncommon.

[wmiller]

I agree with many here that most golf advice is for the benefit of hackers. Let me tell you something about my driver swing.

Ok, well if you're uncommon, we're in good company. I also have a completely different swing with my driver than I do with any other club in the bag. When I was swinging a 7.5 deg G10, I was adding loft and typically launching around 11.5 degrees, sometimes just over 12. I did't like the trajectory I was getting (way too high), nor the near-zero roll. Miss was a pull, or pull draw. When I switched to the 9.5 D3, I went back to a normal length wooden tee, typically pushing the tee another 1/4-1/2" further into the ground at impact with the club head, and get a much more boring/lower trajectory, more carry, and at least some roll. I don't quite push my tee flush into the ground with a driver (I do hammer it into the ground with my 3 though), but I do know I'm hitting down on it. Why not? I hit down/trap everything else. How much? Don't know or care. It currently works for me, and that's what matters.

I personally think the smaller (440cc) head on the D3 helps. I wish someone would make one about 350-360. Or just give me a 909F3 at 9.5 deg. I'd probably love that! :D

[david_wedzik]

Exactly, I'm not about to swallow something hook, line and sinker just because a study with a machine says so. I'll look to the guys who have to do this for a living first.

I like the thread - so more to come later I'm sure

- but quickly - its pretty much a down the middle split on the tour. 50% hit slightly down....50% hit slightly up (with the obvious group near 0). BTW - I prescribe hitting just very slightly down (1-2 deg. or so) as the tradeoffs are just too large to attempt to hit up (though there is a "best" way to do it IMO). Dave

[Parker0065]

In my own game since the "Metal Wood" era, I have always played a 8.5* driver and setup to meet the ball at 0* at impact. This has always given me the best results for distance and carry. I have no idea what my spin numbers are with my current driver, but I know the results and they are good,,lol!

Back in the 'Persimmon Wood" era I played the ball about 1/4 inch up in my stance from today so I assume I had more of a slightly upward blow but I can't imagine it was anywhere near 5*. When I purchased my first metalwood driver in the mid 80's(Taylormade Tour Prefered, about the size of today's 5-woods) I had to make small adjustments in ball position and swing plane to get the ball flight down, it just flew too high.

Like some have stated before there are so many factors that go into launch angle and I agree that 99.9% of all advice in golf magazines are directed towards beginners/+25 handicappers. They are mostly quick fix bandaids for some really bad faults.

[iammpspeer]

I haven't read everyone's posts, but I think this is a stupid discussion. DUH!, everyone knows pros de-loft their shots. WTF do you think getting your hands in front of your club head at impact does? Anyone who thinks they should be hitting up on the ball is quite naive. Look at every youtube swing vision videos, sometimes even the commentator says something about the de-lofting of the players club.

[Scott_K]

We can't really say. Could be your timing that day and how the shaft is loading, could be the temperature, could be the ball you're using... or any combination of those and ten other things.

Figured it wasn't that simple. Dang. I know I need to get fitted, but still reading up on that stuff.

Very interesting as this is helping me understand my driver shot. Two main things I played around with last year was the tee height and ball position. Getting into this new world of 460 cc drivers, I had a number of people telling me I had to tee the ball higher because the face of the club was taller and the sweetspot was higher (My previous driver was a TM Burner bubble from the late 90s) So I did this last season for the sweetspot reason, but also to help me with the conventional wisdom of "hit up on the ball". The problem with this is it makes my tee shot go too high. When I tee it up a little lower, the ball has a more penetrating flight which leads me to believe my attack angle is flatter. The last time I checked, my launch angle was 9.8. Moving the ball forward in my stance. I feel like I'm reaching for the ball a little too much and not getting all of my power into the shot. Also, I'm noticing that my shoulder alignment is open at address when I have the ball to the left of my big toe. I caught my poor shoulder alignment a few times last year which explains some of my horrid shots off the tee. So I'm interpretting the ball position as negatively affecting my distance and dispersion. I lost an avg of 1.3 balls per round last year and ONLY with my driver.

[iacas]

I haven't read everyone's posts, but I think this is a stupid discussion. DUH!, everyone knows pros de-loft their shots.

You do realize we're talking about the driver, right, not an 8-iron from the fairway or something.

Getting into this new world of 460 cc drivers, I had a number of people telling me I had to tee the ball higher because the face of the club was taller and the sweetspot was higher

You hear that a lot too, yet pros tee the ball lower than most average golfers.

Also, I'm noticing that my shoulder alignment is open at address when I have the ball to the left of my big toe.

That's a good point. It can also cause over-the-top moves and a steeper angle of attack. Sometimes moving the ball forward does the opposite of what you think, in this case - more downward angle than the upward angle you'd think you'd get.

[Leftygolfer]

One thing I think we can agree on regarding this a good driver of the ball has somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 degrees either direction and get good launch conditions. I can see how when people say that you need to hit up on the ball a poor player might make a move of hanging back after hearing that.

[iacas]

One thing I think we can agree on regarding this a good driver of the ball has somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 degrees either direction and get good launch conditions. I can see how when people say that you need to hit up on the ball a poor player might make a move of hanging back after hearing that.

That's all I've ever really said. So yeah, I agree with that rephrasing of my original statement(s).

[Zeph]

I think that is the essential here. Tell someone to "hit up" on the ball, and they will start flipping the clubhead past the hands. What you do and what you are told to do are often two very different things. Tell a rookie to hit 2º up and he will hit 20º. Combined with a 10º driver you got 30º of loft. The timing must also be perfect. You see a lot of different follow throughs when it comes to rolling the arms after impact. Being consistent with that is impossible.
There are lots of problems that can occur if you try to hit up with the driver. Hanging back, flipping the club, coming over the top.

It's also about the U-shaped swing. If the clubhead reaches the bottom of the swing in the middle of your stance, there is no way you can keep the hands in front of the clubhead at impact. Rolling the arms over will cause a world of inconsistency.
I looked into the subject myself last year. I have a problem with skying my drives, a result of lots of things I'm sure, but more than anything it's because I've always tried to hit up one the ball, which increase the loft a lot. On a simulator I see that the launch angle is 25º.

One thing I have yet to see mentioned here is where you tee up the ball. Inside the left heel is the most common, but this is very close to the same spot where many hit the longer irons, which you want a descending stroke with. So you have to hit some degrees down with one club and some degrees up with the next, all with pretty much the same, or close to the same stance width and ball position.

There is also the point about the difference in driver and virtually every other club in the bag. All the irons you want a descending stroke with. A wood you might hit at the bottom or slightly descending, but never ascending. I hit my woods way betterwhen I try to hit a descending stroke. I struggle with focusing on having the driver hit the ball on the way up and every other club on the way down. It would surely be easier to have a descending swing with every club. Not -10º with the driver, but a couple of degrees. +/- 2º with 0 as medium wont give any dramatic changes anyways. The biggest difference is what your mind is set to do. You won't try to hit up on the ball, you'll move forward with the weight and keep the hands in front of the club.

I've seen so many bad advices and people being flat out wrong when it comes to the science of golf that I don't take anything for granted. The advantage of these days is high speed cameras and Trackman. That is hard facts, you can't argue with hard facts. Doesn't matter what you think and what your opinion is, Trackman has proved that the clubface angle is the major determinant factor of the initial launch angle of the ball, in contrast to what has been "the word" forever, where it's told that the swing path is the major determinant.

There is no worst case scenario with a thread like this. We can agree that hitting down with the driver is beneficial, or we can agree that hitting up is best after all. Questioning the common rules of golf is needed all the time. It was considered blasphemy when Jan Boklöv startet ski jumping with the V-style instead of the traditional Daescher technique, where you keep the skiis together. It increased the length by 10%.

I don't see why we should not be anything but interested in a subject like this. In some years, perhaps decades, every pro may teach you to hit down with the driver. The tour pros is usually a good standard to use. They are the best and they have both money and time to perfect every single detail. They use high tech computer equipment to find the optimal technique. Phil says he hits up on the ball, but that's in his mind. Video clearly states he does in fact not hit up on it. It doesn't matter to his swing, because whatever swing thought he has, he still hits down. The downswing happens so fast, you have no chance of telling how many degrees your clubhead had, coming into the ball. The problem for every golfer out there is that the swing thought and what really happens is very different. The essential is to find a swing thought which is easiest to understand and ingrain into the swing.

[Leftygolfer]

I can see how if you are a pro you have that feeling of hitting up. They hit down on the ball so much that when they are only "slightly" hitting down and the swing bottom isn't 4-6 inches of front of the ball, that is hitting up on the ball (to their mind/perception). There really is no difference in the swing other than ball position and width of stance assuming you have a solid swing.

[iacas]

It's also about the U-shaped swing. If the clubhead reaches the bottom of the swing in the middle of your stance

I don't want to go off-topic, but I don't think the center of your swing is in the middle of your stance. It's farther forward than that (roughly straight down from your left armpit or the outside of your left shoulder).

One thing I have yet to see mentioned here is where you tee up the ball. Inside the left heel is the most common, but this is very close to the same spot where many hit the longer irons, which you want a descending stroke with. So you have to hit some degrees down with one club and some degrees up with the next, all with pretty much the same, or close to the same stance width and ball position.

Yeah, because of the above - the left armpit/shoulder.

But you're right in pointing out the relatively similar ball position. How do teachers cope with that? In my experience, they seem to tell people to lean backwards. Yeah, that'll get your swing center further back, but these are golfers who already don't get their weight forward (unless they fake it well after impact), and here they are leaning further away from the target. Silliness!

There is no worst case scenario with a thread like this. We can agree that hitting down with the driver is beneficial, or we can agree that hitting up is best after all. Questioning the common rules of golf is needed all the time. It was considered blasphemy when Jan Boklöv startet ski jumping with the V-style instead of the traditional Daescher technique, where you keep the skiis together. It increased the length by 10%.

And the Fosbury Flop. Yeah - what's always done doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. And not that four degrees is as revolutionary as the things we just listed, but I agree.

The tour pros is usually a good standard to use.

So long as we observe what they do, and not just what they say (which you go on to say), then I'd agree.

I can see how if you are a pro you have that feeling of hitting up. They hit down on the ball so much that when they are only "slightly" hitting down and the swing bottom isn't 4-6 inches of front of the ball, that is hitting up on the ball (to their mind/perception).

I never considered why they might say that when the evidence is opposite it, but that might very well be it. Plus, if you think about it, they only ever really talk about hitting down at something when they're hitting down in an exaggerated fashion (ball in the back of a divot, need a lot of spin on a low checking shot from the fairway, etc.). In other words, flat or level to a PGA Tour pro might be -8°.

[Zeph]

I don't want to go off-topic, but I don't think the center of your swing is in the middle of your stance. It's farther forward than that (roughly straight down from your left armpit or the outside of your left shoulder).

I know it's not, but it's what I've been taught it should be. Of course it moves forward, but as we've discussed, people interpret "hit up" very different.

So long as we observe what they do, and not just what they say (which you go on to say), then I'd agree.

That was my point yes, which is why I mentioned Phil. What Tiger, Phil, Adam or Ernie thinks when practicing or playing is not of importance. It's the hard facts we get from Trackman and high speed video I'm talking about.

We can't tell someone how to feel a descending stroke, but the least we could do is tell them what the optimal approach is. Golf is not a game of perfect, it's more a game of eliminating wrongs. If the optimal angle is +/- 2 degrees, telling a rookie to hit "up" would be a bad advice. Getting the clubhead past the hands before impact is not good.

[Chas]

Zeph,
I found your post #30 very insightful, much of it applies to me I would say. A couple of years ago I was convinced that I needed to hit up on the ball with driver, to improve a too-low trajectory (reduced carry) and avoid pop-ups (unspeakable ....), but I think that I exaggerated the change which has created problems such as insufficient weight shift, flipping etc - as you nicely explained. I just KNOW that I'm not getting my weight really into the shot with driver. This would explain why I can often hit my 3W nearly as far as driver - because I don't hang back with that club, proper weight shift is so important for solid contact.

I'm thinking now that hitting up a lot wasn't the best answer to my original problems. I'll try for a feeling of being fairly level at contact with a proper weight shift, and let the clubface do the "lifting".
Good exchange between you and Erik. Maybe this'll be the year I get my driver cranking - it's about time .....

[CalBoomer]

An interesting discussion. First, an analogy from baseball. All long-ball hitters hit the baseball best with a slightly rising bat at the moment of impact. BUT, baseball bats have no built-in angulation like all golf clubs do. I think we can all agree that the net angle for a driver clubface has to be positive at the moment of impact for any kind of decent drive. The net angle is the sum of the driver angle plus the attack angle. So a pro driving with a driver angle of +9 and an attack angle of -2 is hitting the ball with a net angle of +7. You have to have pretty incredible clubhead speed to get a good drive with a net angle of only +7. The pros can do it. I can't. I daresay the majority of amateurs can't either. Given their clubhead speeds, most amateurs would do best with a net angle of +10 to +13. This obviously can be achieved in several ways. a negative attack angle with a highly angulated driver. A slightly positive angle of attack with a less angulated driver. Or middle of the road driver with a perfectly level angle of attack.

Having said all that, I would make three additional comments. 1) Trying to distinguish between a -2 and +2 angle of attack visually without good equipment is probably impossible. 2) Most high handicappers in my limited experience try to hit their driver with an attack angle which is far too negative for any degree of driver angulation to counteract. 3) It is futile to try to mentally "hit up" on a golf ball consistently. I suspect that instructions to "hit up" are intended to counteract an inherent tendency to hit too far down, but wind up being counterproductive because of the crazy behavior it can induce.

I personally hit a +10 driver and from much practice know where the bottom of my driver swing is in my stance. I play the ball slightly forward of that point and suspect that I hit the ball with a very slightly positive angle of attack. I also tee the ball a tiny bit higher. This provides me with consistency, and I never hit the ground with my driver. The bottom line is that I don't do it like some of the pros, but driving is one of the best parts of my game. Really, there is more than one way to skin this cat if you think carefully about what you are doing.

[Shanks A Million]

An interesting discussion. First, an analogy from baseball. All long-ball hitters hit the baseball best with a slightly rising bat at the moment of impact. BUT, baseball bats have no built-in angulation like all golf clubs do. I think we can all agree that the net angle for a driver clubface has to be positive at the moment of impact for any kind of decent drive. The net angle is the sum of the driver angle plus the attack angle. So a pro driving with a driver angle of +9 and an attack angle of -2 is hitting the ball with a net angle of +7.

Much more than that. The dynamic loft of the driver is calculated by the loft + angle of attack + shaft kick. Shaft kick adds quite a bit of dynamic loft to a driver. Kick is probably around 4° on a regular flex shaft. This means a 9° driver + a flat angle of attack will be about a 13° launch angle.