Michael Breed at the Bob Hope - Discuss

[iacas]

OK, so the title of the video is Michael Breed: Everything That Is Wrong With Golf Instruction . No, it's not my video. The video's description is:

Source: Video Description
Michael Breed is perhaps the most readily accessible form of golf instruction for the masses. He clearly does not understand the face to path relationship which governs the flight of the ball. This video highlights why golf is so difficult for the masses of people who try to learn the game.

The back story is that Pena is hitting pulls and pull-fades. That's a closed clubface combined with an outside-in swing. Breed tells him to swing more from the inside (fine) and to release the club. Pena even says "that feel really handsy but I guess that's how it's supposed to feel???" Breed says "if you're fighting that fade, you've gotta release that club, let it turn over."

Pena proceeds to hit a quick duck hook and Breed changes the subject.

[Elvisliveson]

Are you sure you wish to start another one of these threads, after the Faldo incident?

Seriously, I never had a high opinion of Breed, this just confirms it.

[iacas]

Are you sure you wish to start another one of these threads, after the Faldo incident?

Hey, nobody ever said change was easy.

Breed's probably a good guy... I watch his show. And that's about all I'll say about that.

[jamo]

Hey, nobody ever said change was easy.

He seems like a good instructor, i guess he just doen't get the ball flight rules. It seems to very a very "down low" piece of information. I've never heard Haney or Harmon talk about it, i think if one of the big magazines published an article WITH DATA about it, it would go more mainstream.

[DBeane]

I think most instructors are only as good as their students. I'll never forget, many moons ago I was working out at Austin Country Club and I was fighting coming over the top of shots (turns out it was a simple fix), anyway...I ran into Tinsley Penick on the front nine and said asked him to watch me hit a few shots. He said "you have a great swing, I don’t know why they are going right".

I do think the pivot, release, and where the ball starts is misunderstood by most people (instructors included). David Ledbetter has a book where he uses the original photos from the 5 Lessons to give his interpretation of the 5 lessons. One photo he notes "look at Ben's reverse pivot", Hogan didn’t have a reverse pivot.

I misunderstood some of the fundamentals for 15 years, and then quit playing for 4 years out of frustration. Someone shed some light on the pivot to me a year and a half ago and it’s been a complete overhaul since. Michael Breed got the job because he looks good on camera and he has a bright personality. Does he know what he is talking about...that’s debatable....so on with the thread!!!

-Beane

[lcfd42]

OK, so the title of the video is

Im glad someone other than me noticed that.

[david_wedzik]

He seems like a good instructor, i guess he just doen't get the ball flight rules.

This is not meant to be argumentative and I'm glad you made the comment as it brings up a very important point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be a good instructor who "just doesn't get the ball flight rules". Knowing the ball flight laws is imperative to any instructor or player. They are the ESSENCE of golf and govern the rules of teaching it.

Dave

[kleraudio]

Can someone explain the ball flight rules in a nutshell?? How could Breed not know that a closed club face with an Out-In path will lead to pulls and pull-fades???

Or am I completely off base there?

[Keep It Simple]

If someone is going to play golf with these kind of swing mechanics, they have to learn to time the release. Turn the clubhead over too soon and you get vicious hooks. But, it really isn't difficult to learn and keep the timing. For golfers with weaker core strength, there are a few extra yards in swinging this way. I don't have a problem with Michael Breed's advice. Luke Donald is a "releaser" who throws his right hand and so are a few other PGA pros.

[Zeph]

Knowing the ball flight rules is kinda an important point. He's just flat out wrong on that video. Telling someone who struggle with pull and pull-fade to start "releasing" the clubhead and flipping the toe?

I wouldn't pay a nickel to get instructed by him.

Getting more yards is one thing, it may work for professional golfers who hit thousands of balls, but to use it as instructional advice for a random golfer? What's better, to keep the wrist action to a minimum and be accurate, or risk accuracy and gain a couple of yards?

What's more, Pena didn't want more yards, he wanted to hit a draw and stop pulling the ball. You don't flip the club over to hit a draw. If anything, you'll have to prevent it from flipping over, since the clubhead must be aimed right of the target for the draw to happen.

[Tiger Spuds]

When I was taking up Golf for the first time, I watched a lot of those Golf Fix segments on the Golf Channel's website and learned precious little to be honest.Maybe it's the format, he rarely spends more than 2 or 3 minutes on any one topic.Maybe he in person he's better, but his methods seem very 'quick fix'.

[david_wedzik]

Knowing the ball flight rules is kinda an important point. He's just flat out wrong on that video. Telling someone who struggle with pull and pull-fade to start "releasing" the clubhead and flipping the toe?

BINGO!!...and before someone else drops it in I KNOW you meant: aimed right of the target for the draw "that works towards the target" to happen".

Dave

[kfowler]

If someone is going to play golf with these kind of swing mechanics, they have to learn to time the release. Turn the clubhead over too soon and you get vicious hooks. But, it really isn't difficult to learn and keep the timing. For golfers with weaker core strength, there are a few extra yards in swinging this way. I don't have a problem with Michael Breed's advice. Luke Donald is a "releaser" who throws his right hand and so are a few other PGA pros.

The flip side of this is that the average pga pro has tremendous eye to hand coordination and timing. The average golfer simply doesn't have this.

[iacas]

If someone is going to play golf with these kind of swing mechanics, they have to learn to time the release.

We've discussed this plenty in other threads, but I simply don't see that as being a truly valid thought. You get almost no added distance and your timing is bound to be all over the place. And lot of pro golfers flip the club hard AFTER impact - almost none do it before. Only if they get "stuck" and that's not going to be a good shot anyway.

[kleraudio]

So when would Breed have been correct telling him to "release" the club. If he was hitting a push or a push fade??

Makes more sense to me.

Jim

[iacas]

So when would Breed have been correct telling him to "release" the club. If he was hitting a push or a push fade??

What does? I think "release the club" is bad advice all around (as the one thread can attest), but it's absolutely terrible for a pull-anything. If you're hitting a small push and you want to draw the ball, great - you're most of the way there and you'd just have to work on your path.

[kleraudio]

So if your hitting a push, then release the club would still have been bad advice? I guess you automatically release with the right path. And I agree if your pulling the ball it is even WORSE advice.

Jim

[Zeph]

So if your hitting a push, then release the club would still have been bad advice? I guess you automatically release with the right path. And I agree if your pulling the ball it is even WORSE advice.

"Release the club" is always bad advice because it's too hard to time it perfectly every time. I prefer turning the clubhead in the hands at address, not try to time it perfectly during impact. If you push the ball, I'd have a look at the grip and what you do with the arms and wrists on the backswing. Most likely, the person is turning the face open in the backswing and not being able to rotate it back most of the time. Could also be a weak grip.

To hit a draw, aim the body lets say 20º right of the target and the clubface 10º right. To hit a fade, aim the body 20º left and the clubface 10º left. You swing the exactly same way, not exaggerating in-to-out or out-to-in. To keep the clubface in place, you must not turn the arms over or flip the wrists in any direction. Keep the clubface square to its initial direction. If you have a natural in-to-out swing, you may have to alter where you aim the body to compensate. When hitting a draw, you would aim less to the right, when hitting a fade, you would aim more to the right. Unless you have Trackman or some other advice to monitor swingpath when swinging, you'll just have to experiment.