Hitting a Fade (Ball Flight Question)

[kfowler]

I'd whip out a Husqvarna chain saw and cut that damn tree right down. Then I'd proceed to hit a boring line drive shot right at the target. Stupid trees.

Oh.. I'd aim left and open up stance.

[Parker0065]

I could aim the clubface at my left foot, that doesn't mean that after I swing, the ball will hit my left foot.

LOL,,,Just to be safe I wouldn't try that shot! Although it would be a story you could tell your grandchildren someday!

You are probably right, I would be hitting into a bunch of trees...if the club was pointed at them at impact.

On a serious note, the reason I agreed with your original post is because that is the proper way to hit a fade or draw without doing any crazy compensation of flipping or not flipping your hands through impact. The point is, if you have set up for a fade and properly swing the club down the line of your body alignment, the ball is not going to go directly into the tree unless you just straight up blocked it. When the ball initially contacts the ball it may be pointed at the target(tree), but it compresses to the clubface which is attached to the shaft that just so happens to be traveling to the left of target because thats how you setup you body alignment, to the left. The ball will start left of target and spin back to the target. The misconception seems to be that the ball will go in the direction of the clubface where the clubface makes initial contact with the ball. The ball will go in the direction of the clubface once it has compressed and leaves the clubface, and it this point the swingpath has pulled the ball to the left of target imparting sidespin.

Reading some of the answers to the original question made me wonder that perhaps most people looked at this as a recovery shot requiring a fairly large cut, I looked at it as just a basic 4 to 5 yard fade from like 170 yards with the tree 100 yards in front of you. There are so many variables as to what shot to play and how to play it and a lot depends on how much distance is between you and the obstacle. Lets say if this was more of a recovery shot then that would mean I'm probably close to the obstacle and I need a 10-20 yard cut, then your forced to aim left of the tree and maybe even try to hold off the release a little to really keep the clubface open and get the ball spinning to the right. I made this image but it came directly out of the "PGA MANUAL OF GOLF" written by Gary Wiren. Note: The example is of a draw, but the concept is the same for a fade. The caption states that both the position of the clubface and the swingpath have an effect on the starting direction of the ball. It also states that the position of the clubface at impact does have more influence than the swing path which is a valuable peice of information when determining how much of a fade you want to hit and where to aim the clubface to avoid hitting an obstacle.

[Phil McGleno]

When the ball initially contacts the ball it may be pointed at the target(tree), but it compresses to the clubface which is attached to the shaft that just so happens to be traveling to the left of target because thats how you setup you body alignment, to the left. The ball will start left of target and spin back to the target. The misconception seems to be that the ball will go in the direction of the clubface where the clubface makes initial contact with the ball.

You're like 85% wrong. The clubface angle is - by far - the determining factor in where the ball starts. The clubface will not "carry" the ball to the left of the tree - if the clubface is pointing at the tree at impact the ball's going to hit the tree. End of story.

You're diagram's cute, but it's nowhere near the 85% or so that's considered accurate and correct these days. I teach golfers and started using this understanding of ball flight four years ago. That means I taught people with bad information for over 25 years, but I'm not ashamed to admit I was wrong and to learn and improve. And by the looks of it I'm still well ahead of the curve!

[Parker0065]

I guess I don't know what to tell you, you just seem like a guy that likes to tell people thier wrong,lol! I don't know you or how you teach others? You may be a great instructor, who knows?

The clubface will not "carry" the ball to the left of the tree

To correct you I stated that the swingpath is what influences the ball to start to the left of target, not the clubface. The clubface is attached to the shaft that is traveling in a different direction in relation to the position of the club face. Perhaps I could have explained it better!

The clubface angle is - by far - the determining factor in where the ball starts.

Here's my exact qoute "It also states that the position of the clubface at impact does have more influence than the swing path", maybe you missed that part!

So what your saying is the swingpath has basically zero impact on where the ball starts it's flight in relation to the target you are hitting to? That's interesting! Perhaps Dr. Gary Wiren himself can shed some light on this. He has a website and I'll attempt to contact him to see what his thoughts are on the subject. It would be interesting to get his comments on your theory of swingpath having no effect on the direction of the ball. I hope I can get a reply from him and I'll get back with you on this. Have a nice day!

[iacas]

To correct you I stated that the swingpath is what influences the ball to start to the left of target, not the clubface.

That's what he's saying. He put what you were saying - that the ball "sticks" to the clubface and is carried along the swing path - into different words. They're still wrong, but I think he was rephrasing what you said.

So what your saying is the swingpath has basically zero impact on where the ball starts it's flight in relation to the target you are hitting to? That's interesting!

It has roughly 1/6th the influence of the clubface angle. Almost none. So little that if you aim at the middle of a tree with your clubface, you're quite likely going to hit the tree.

It would be interesting to get his comments on your theory of swingpath having no effect on the direction of the ball.

Nobody's saying "no effect" and it's not a theory. It's science.

Read up on it: http://trackman.dk/getmedia/55e8af48...wsJan2009.aspx and http://trackman.dk/getmedia/2f6c5cdc...Jul2009_1.aspx . Article on ball flight laws coming up on Wednesday on the site.

[Parker0065]

OK, so as I stated before in the illustration that the clubface has more effect on direction than swing path!

You guy's just put a number to it!
So, Happy Day, I guess we were both right!

Thanks,,,,lol!!

[wmiller]

Simple? lesson in classical mechanics/objects in motion/physics. Galileo would be proud...

I know I'm getting old, but they still teach this stuff, right? LOL (joking of course)

I wish I'd known I could have gotten my son interested in math/physics if I had just used golf!

[Shanks A Million]

It doesn't matter where you aim, it matters where the clubface is pointed at impact.

The rules are pretty simple, the ball takes off between the direction of force and the angle of the face. It then curves based on the face angle. Open face = fade, closed face = draw, every time, no matter what, till the cows come home. The direction that the feet are pointed is totally irrelevant. These rules still apply on a swing robot, and it doesn't have feet.

[Zeph]

Why would anyone aim their clubface at address different than what they want it to be at impact?

If I shoot a gun, I aim directly at the target. I don't aim left and gamble on being so accurate I can pull the gun towards the target while firing. It doesn't make sense at all.

Let's say you are going to hit a fade. Body aimed left, clubface aimed at target. You now have to close the clubface relative to how it was at address during the swing. On the next shot, you want to hit a draw. You aim right and aim the clubface at the target. Now you have to open the clubface during the swing. On the next shot you want to hit it dead straight, aiming body and clubface at the target.
Here you got three different shots which require you do do three different movements.

Fade: Close the clubface
Draw: Open the clubface
Straight: Keep the clubface as it was address

How is this preferable to setting up with a closed and open clubface when hitting a draw and fade?

Fade: Keep the clubface as it was at address
Draw: Keep the clubface as it was at address
Straight: Keep the clubface as it was at address

Why make golf harder than it already is?

[jamo]

Read up on it:

Thanks for the links. I guess this is the science you keep talking about. Good to finally read it.

[Zeph]

Those articles, or what they teach, should be incorporated into every lesson a golfer takes. Learn it to beginners on their first lesson. Learning the ball flight laws is probably one of the most valuable things to know when playing golf.

[colin007]

Read up on it:

very interesting...that gear effect discussion was pretty informative, seems like it should be the opposite of what the data shows.

[Parker0065]

You're like 85% wrong. The clubface angle is - by far - the determining factor in where the ball starts. The clubface will not "carry" the ball to the left of the tree - if the clubface is pointing at the tree at impact the ball's going to hit the tree. End of story.

I recieved a reply back from Dr Wiren. Pretty cool that a guy like that would reply back so quickly.

I'm going to post this then I'm done with the subject. In my opinion the initial question of this thread was ignorant at best because there were no parameters given to the shot,,,ie..distance to the hole,,,distance to the tree,,,size of the tree,,,ect.... Anyways here's the example I sent Dr. Wiren based on the original question of hitting a fade : My example given is if I were to play a fade to a pin, I would aim my clubface at the pin and I would align my stance and body to the left of the target and making my normal swing the ball would start just to the left of target and fade back to the hole. The Teaching Professional stated that I was wrong and that even though I had aligned my body and swing path to the left, this would have almost no effect on where the ball starts in relation to the target. He stated that in my example the ball would start out directly at the flag because that is where the clubface is pointing when the club initially contacts the ball. I showed him illustration 2-18 found in Chapter 2 of your manual and he stated that it was incorrect and outdated. Dr. Wiren's response: Patrick, I would say his example would certainly be true for a putt because the velocity of the clubhead is so insignificant that negligible energy is transferred on the line of swing. The face position has, in my experience and understanding, around double the effect for a full swing of the path. But this is an estimate as it would depend on the velocity of the shot. The greater the velocity the more influence the path. It is known as a vector force. Now if the laws of physics have changed, then I stand corrected. Gary Gary Wiren, PhD. www.garywiren.com Something that Butch, Erik, and I all failed to mention was "Vector Force". The faster the clubhead is traveling the more influence the swingpath will have on the ball direction. OK, I'm done! I wouldn't have went to such lengths if your reply hadn't come off so arrogant, but hey, this is the internet, it can be difficult to read others emotional responses so maybe you were or maybe you weren't,,it doesn't really matter. At least one cool thing came out of it and that was getting a email response from a world renowned PGA Master Professional Dr. Gary Wiren. It was nice that he took time out to repond!

[iacas]

In my opinion the initial question of this thread was ignorant at best because there were no parameters given to the shot,,,ie..distance to the hole,,,distance to the tree,,,size of the tree,,,ect....

There didn't need to be any parameters. You're asked about hitting a fade around a tree. You aim the clubface left of the tree. Easy.

The face position has, in my experience and understanding, around double the effect for a full swing of the path.

Current science, measurements, observations, etc. would seem to disagree with him.

Now if the laws of physics have changed, then I stand corrected.

The laws of physics haven't changed. Our ability to measure things accurately has.

Something that Butch, Erik, and I all failed to mention was "Vector Force". The faster the clubhead is traveling the more influence the swingpath will have on the ball direction.

Vector force simply manifests itself as a change in how long the ball is on the clubface. It's also nowhere near a linear relationship. Imagine swiping across the back of a ball with a square clubface traveling 5000 MPH at an angle of 89°. The ball would spin more than anything - and it still might not even get to 50% "path."

I've mentioned clubhead speed before. The 85% rule holds up pretty well over a wide range of clubhead speeds and face angle/path gaps. I've seen figures that show the long drive guys only ever get to 80/20 (and that's rare - it's typically 82/18 or so), and that's still 4x as much face angle as path. It's much easier to get it to 90/10 than 80/20. So far as I know we never get to 66/33 - maybe at 5000 MPH. :) I would be interested to see Dr. Wiren talk to the Trackman people (or the many other people in the industry who have measured this - the Trackman people have just managed to publish publicly available and relatively easy-to-read information on it).

[Shanks A Million]

There are some other issues here.

All these theories involve the ball hitting the center of the face, and being compressed properly by the club. There are other variables. So the old rules could be true in some senses, being as that the club may have felt like it was struck pure when it was not.

[Zeph]

That would not make the old rules true, it just changes the clubface at impact.

With a poor strike, anything can happen, but I don't see why we should take that into account. People struggling with an open clubface surely would benefit from working on better ball striking if an off-center impact is a problem. That does still not make the old rules in any way correct. I don't imagine all the pros have such poor ball striking that when hitting a draw, the clubface would open due to an off-center hit.

[Shanks A Million]

That would not make the old rules true, it just changes the clubface at impact.

But things like trapping the ball could change things. Who really knows? We say we know now, but we may know very little. Science is unique in that it's always up for debate.

[upah]

While I agree that the face must be angled left of the tree, I feel that this debate is inherently flawed. For instance, the only purely scientific contribution we have thus far is the Trackman article Erik posted (interesting by the way). Additionally, there has been some constructive commentary on the physics of the golf swing and the theory behind what happens when a two-plane system in motion contacts a static object. We've instead had several people post their personal conception of where they 'feel' their clubface is pointed at impact.

No doubt the merit in understanding the golf swing is immeasurable. I think it is foolish to ignore the contributions of modern technology when discussing physics. Sure, certain theories have been commonly accepted for decades, but challenging these theories is how we gain an understanding of the science behind the sport.

Erik, if your ~85% rule applies, then isn't it possible that with a square clubface and an attack angle of 80 degrees that one could bend a ball around a tree in front of them? That would theoretically yield an initial flight of ~13 degrees off the club face, and a ton of spin. So depending on the distance to the tree and conceding that this is an awful way to hit a golf ball, it seems as if it were in fact possible. Again, I agree with the basic message you're sending--my engineering mind is just curious.