Christians

[nike_golf]

Yes. But, as w/ all other Christians, I have to remind myself to act in a better, more Christian way. It's a constant struggle.

I'm not surprised at the number of "non believers" and/or atheists. I believe anyone can and should believe whatever they want to. I would also not look down on someone for believing in something other than I do. That being said, I believe those non believing folks are making the biggest mistake you can ever make in life by choosing not to believe.

That's just my two cents.

[Shanks A Million]

I'm not surprised at the number of "non believers" and/or atheists. I believe anyone can and should believe whatever they want to. I would also not look down on someone for believing in something other than I do. That being said, I believe those non believing folks are making the biggest mistake you can ever make in life by choosing not to believe.

Don't know about that. God, with infinite wisdom and limitless power really would refuse to forgive those who simply refuse to believe in him/it/her/god? To me, it seems as if this is a perception of man, something to control the masses. I honestly think that god is god whether you believe in god or not. I understand the concept of faith, but think it's more of a thing for personal use, not a litmus test.

[senorchipotle]

I'm not surprised at the number of "non believers" and/or atheists. I believe anyone can and should believe whatever they want to. I would also not look down on someone for believing in something other than I do.

I'll take most condescending ostentatious ignorant self righteous comments for 400 please, alex. *ahem*, one cannot choose ''not to believe.'' first of all, it doesn't make sense as a statement, i.e. ''john chose to no longer believe in santa.'' secondly, how is it any more a mistake not to believe in your religion than it is a mistake for you ''choosing'' not to believe in islam? please, enlighten me.

alas, the question at hand. no, i am no christian. i began to see reality as it is when i accepted that evolution happens, that the world is billions of years old, and the bible does not coincide with it. i am an agnostic atheist.

[Shorty]

Yes. But, as w/ all other Christians, I have to remind myself to act in a better, more Christian way. It's a constant struggle.

You think it is stupid not to believe in something which requires people to be ignorant, unquestioning and childlike? To base a belief on something that has no scientific evidence, which suited a "belief system" over a thousand years old where a lot of people believed that the earth was flat and actually believed in a person rising from the dead or that miracles actually happen? It is one thing for someone to think that Jesus set a reasonable example and trying to follow that in terms of humanity and civility. Problem is, the Bible doesn't exactly preach tolerance, does it? To believe in something like resurrection and the universe being made in a week which is so obviously nonsense obviously calls into question the intelligence and gullibility of a person with such belief. You think it is the worst possible mistake not to believe in something which has no connection with reality or fact. I say that a person who chooses to believe in something for which there is no evidence is insane.

[Shanks A Million]

You think it is stupid not to believe in something which requires people to be ignorant, unquestioning and childlike? To base a belief on something that has no scientific evidence, which suited a "belief system" over a thousand years old where a lot of people believed that the earth was flat and actually believed in a person rising from the dead or that miracles actually happen? It is one thing for someone to think that Jesus set a reasonable example and trying to follow that in terms of humanity and civility. Problem is, the Bible doesn't exactly preach tolerance, does it? To believe in something like resurrection and the universe being made in a week which is so obviously nonsense obviously calls into question the intelligence and gullibility of a person with such belief. You think it is the worst possible mistake not to believe in something which has no connection with reality or fact. I say that a person who chooses to believe in something for which there is no evidence is insane.

The bible has very little to do with Jesus, it was written 400 years after he died. It just goes back to the argument of "church" vs "god." The church may say what they want, but that doesn't change what Jesus himself did or said.

[nike_golf]

LOL. Leave it to me to get everyone stirred up on this. Something I DIDN'T want to do.

Oh boy.......

I even said you can believe what you want. I really don't care. I wouldn't hate anyone for not believing what I believe. Like I said, I personally feel they are making a mistake and I leave it at that.

I always get a kick out of the atheists who get mad and fired up on this subject though. I just said I wouldn't hate anyone for believing in something other than me in my first post, and I have three posts right after that firing bombs my way.

Folks, I said believe what you want. I really don't care. It has no bearing on how I feel about you or others like you. I'm not interested in jamming anything down your throats or really debating this. You don't believe. You believe in nothing. Great, grand. Why get upset and/or attack others that DO believe?

[nike_golf]

I'll take most condescending ostentatious ignorant self righteous comments for 400 please, alex. *ahem*, one cannot choose ''not to believe.'' first of all, it doesn't make sense as a statement, i.e. ''john chose to no longer believe in santa.'' secondly, how is it any more a mistake not to believe in your religion than it is a mistake for you ''choosing'' not to believe in islam? please, enlighten me.

I agree, choose is the wrong and inappropriate word to use. It doesn't really make sense. That being said, I have the free will to believe what I believe. Everyone has the free will to believe what they want to believe. I don't believe the earth is billions of years old. I also question many of scientists refuted "theories" on things like evolution and how the earth was created, etc etc.

I don't have all the answers. No one does.

[nike_golf]

You think it is stupid not to believe in something which requires people to be ignorant, unquestioning and childlike? To base a belief on something that has no scientific evidence, which suited a "belief system" over a thousand years old where a lot of people believed that the earth was flat and actually believed in a person rising from the dead or that miracles actually happen? It is one thing for someone to think that Jesus set a reasonable example and trying to follow that in terms of humanity and civility. Problem is, the Bible doesn't exactly preach tolerance, does it? To believe in something like resurrection and the universe being made in a week which is so obviously nonsense obviously calls into question the intelligence and gullibility of a person with such belief. You think it is the worst possible mistake not to believe in something which has no connection with reality or fact. I say that a person who chooses to believe in something for which there is no evidence is insane.

I never called anyone stupid for not believing in what I do.

Look, you can call my religion, or religions in general, hokey pokey nonsense. I will say that having Faith is something that non believers just don't understand. Non believers say that there is no evidence. Well, actually there is evidence of Biblical buildings, ships, and cities being confirmed by findings, but thats not what I want to talk about. No evidence you say? I look out the window and see evidence. I look at how this all came to be, as evidence of God's work. I always have to ask atheists. What do you believe happens when you die?

[Shorty]

No evidence you say? I look out the window and see evidence. I look at how this all came to be, as evidence of God's work.

You are obviously pretty easily satisfied when all you have to do is look outside to see evidence. Marvelous God this one of yours who allows babies to die in earthquakes etc. Oh hang on - that's punishment for sin isn't it. Gawd (joke) Give me strength....

What happens when I die? Well, I'll be cremated and burn and that will be it. If a person is buried, they rot and decompose. What do you think happens?

[Shorty]

Well, actually there is evidence of Biblical buildings, ships, and cities being confirmed by findings, but thats not what I want to talk about.

Ships? Do you mean ARKS? You have got to be kidding me. Archaelogical evidence of buildings has nothing to do with resurrectiuons and mircales. What are you saying - that because you can go to Jeusalem the universe was created in 7 days? And why do you put the word theories in inverted commas? Why don't you believe the earth is billions of years old? The most basic grasp of geology will prove to the stupidest person that the world is more than a few thousand years old. The fact that you don't have all the answers is not a satisfactory reason for believing in a ludicrous fairytale. Don't worry - this is my last word on the subject.

[nike_golf]

You are obviously pretty easily satisfied when all you have to do is look outside to see evidence. Marvelous God this one of yours who allows babies to die in earthquakes etc. Oh hang on - that's punishment for sin isn't it. Gawd (joke) Give me strength....

LOL. I bet you're afraid to death of dying, aren't you?

What do I believe happens? Paradise.

[nike_golf]

Ships? Do you mean ARKS? You have got to be kidding me. Archaelogical evidence of buildings has nothing to do with resurrectiuons and mircales. What are you saying - that because you can go to Jeusalem the universe was created in 7 days? And why do you put the word theories in inverted commas? Why don't you believe the earth is billions of years old? The most basic grasp of geology will prove to the stupidest person that the world is more than a few thousand years old. The fact that you don't have all the answers is not a satisfactory reason for believing in a ludicrous fairytale. Don't worry - this is my last word on the subject.

LOL, yes, Arks as well. I wasn't debating whether archaelogical evidence has anything to do w/ one thing or another. I'm just saying there is evidence in some things that the bible talks about is actual, and very real.

I don't believe the earth is billions of years old because I use common sense. (laugh, laugh right?) Think about it, billions of years old? Really? And I would be interested to hear what you believe in how the earth and universe started? I also never stated that I believe the earth is a mere few thousands years old, but I'll say no more than twenty thousand. I have read and heard reputable folks on that issue. The fact is, is that WE don't have answers for MOST things that we are talking about. Myself, you, scientists, preachers, etc etc. I believe in what I believe and I don't worry about that stuff and I'm more than happy w/ that.

[zeg]

LOL. Leave it to me to get everyone stirred up on this. Something I DIDN'T want to do.

I was wondering how long before this thread exploded into fireworks. I'm surprised it lasted this long.

I hope you'll understand that I mean the remainder of my post in a spirit of discussion and not to be an offensive attack.

I even said you can believe what you want. I really don't care. I wouldn't hate anyone for not believing what I believe. Like I said, I personally feel they are making a mistake and I leave it at that.

Your statement bothered me at first, but I think I understand what you meant. You find strength/solace/something positive from your belief and you feel that others are missing out because they do not share it with you. Is that what you mean? (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.) I don't share your belief, but I understand the sentiment, and I think it's a common one. As we've seen here you have to be careful about how you state it because it can come across as either insulting or self-righteous (or both) whether or not it's intended as such!

That being said, I have the free will to believe what I believe. Everyone has the free will to believe what they want to believe. I don't believe the earth is billions of years old. I also question many of scientists refuted "theories" on things like evolution and how the earth was created, etc etc.

I'm not sure what you mean with your last sentence. Are you suggesting that the "theories" like evolution have been disproven?

As for "believing" the age of the earth, this is an example of one of the issues in the science vs religion "struggle" that bothers me most. Determining the age of the earth, of the universe, etc, is a difficult business. However, there is a huge array of information from observations going back hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of years that combine to give us the methods we use to estimate these ages. It "shouldn't" be as simple as choosing not to believe a particular result. By rejecting that, you're effectively rejecting vast tracts of very well measured, very well established science. (Incidentally, much of it is the same science that makes possible technologies you use every day.)

I don't have all the answers. No one does.

Nope, I'll admit that. But there's a difference between believing in God and rejecting science; there are plenty of examples of successful, religious scientists (notably, Einstein and Darwin).

I always have to ask atheists. What do you believe happens when you die?

I don't have any idea. Telling myself stories about what it will be like doesn't make me feel any better. It's nice to imagine that somehow you do get to go on observing, feeling, watching over the ones you love. However, it's also nice to imagine that your next trip to the DMV will be a pleasant, fulfilling experience.

[JetFan1983]

The greatest band of all-time is Faith + 1.

[senorchipotle]

LOL, yes, Arks as well. I wasn't debating whether archaelogical evidence has anything to do w/ one thing or another. I'm just saying there is evidence in some things that the bible talks about is actual, and very real.

there is no evidence of any ark, anywhere. there's a place called mount ararat in turkey which ''religious scientists'' take to be the final resting place of the ark. all it is is a huge boatlike rock indention in the side of a mountain. nothing more. so, you have used common sense to determine that the age of the earth is not billions of years old? at the same time, you think billions of living organisms of all shapes and sizes rode on a boat for a year and came to rest in turkey. using your common sense, can you tell me how they all got back to their respective continents? nevermind how they even got there in the first place.

here's something simple for you to think about. if we can see other stars through a telescope, which we can, and that star is 10 million light years away, that means that the light would have had to leave that star at least 10 million years ago. as it so happens, we can see light from stars 15 billion light years away, this necessarily means the universe is at the very least 15 billion years old. we can further deduce that from the point of origin of what we know to be the epicenter of a ginormous, epic explosion, that traveling at the rate which our particular galaxy travels away from it, an our position in the galaxy, our little rock we called home was gathered in the gravitational pull of a star which we call the sun about 4.3 billion years ago. there's also a little thing called radiometric dating, but i won't bore you with that. your common sense would just destroy all the empirical data that supports it. and yes, evolution happens. how else do you think we have over 10,000 species of ants? was god that bored that he created that many variations of the same insect? why do you have dna to grow a tail? why is your mouth too small for all the teeth you grow? why do we have genetic defects? let me guess, satan. yeah, i thought so. ignoring facts doesn't change their validity nor make them go away. taking a conclusion and discarding realities that do not lead you to your conclusion is not smart. it does not make you a better person. in fact, it makes you dishonest, and foolish. and just because you don't ''have answers,'' doesn't mean others don't. methinks you give yourself too much credit. actually, i'm quite sure of it.

[michaeljames92]

there is no evidence of any ark, anywhere. there's a place called mount ararat in turkey which ''religious scientists'' take to be the final resting place of the ark. all it is is a huge boatlike rock indention in the side of a mountain. nothing more. so, you have used common sense to determine that the age of the earth is not billions of years old? at the same time, you think billions of living organisms of all shapes and sizes rode on a boat for a year and came to rest in turkey. using your common sense, can you tell me how they all got back to their respective continents? nevermind how they even got there in the first place.

I'm a roman catholic, although studying religion at school basically put me off going to church. As a result i haven't been for about 6 months. I love the fact that science can help in finding out how and when we came to be. It really annoys me when people blindly believe anything they are told in regards to religion especially when science proves this wrong. Besides half of the old testament in the bible is total crap. A lot of those stories were told to answer the questions of the people.

[sean_miller]

The bible has very little to do with Jesus, it was written 400 years after he died. It just goes back to the argument of "church" vs "god." The church may say what they want, but that doesn't change what Jesus himself did or said.

I think you should do a little homework before claiming the bible - or rather the parts specifically referring to Jesus - were written later than 400 AD.

Edit: or are you talking about when they settled on a final version?

[MikeLowry5]

It is harder to live your life to a standard than to nothing at all. A Christian holds himself, as do others, to a certain standard. When we fall short of that standard, because we are imperfect and fallible, we risk being called hypocrite.

As someone who is not religious I agree with this statement. You may have lost your audience with the statment that life is easy without a standard. The standard I assume you speak of would be your religious beliefs. I personally care about the poor (both monetarily, physically, and emotionally), speak out against violence, try to treat others with dignity and as a human, etc. Maybe, just a sucker but, I believe that humans are inherently good and we just have to present opportunities that allow the goodness to come out.

Wow, what happened to the golf talk....