Rules Q - Savannah grass rule

[Fat Slice]

Here's one I would like to understand better...happened to me last year.

We are playing under Savannah rules. As they are spelled out to us, if everyone agrees that a ball flew into the tall grass (and not OB) then the player can

1) invoke rule, drop ball at entry, take 1 stroke penalty

OR

2) look for ball, in which case

a) if found, PLAY IT AS IT LAYS (or take an unplayable, which in some cases will not provide suitable relief)

b) if NOT found, play it like a "lateral hazard" (I am guessing they mean lateral water hazard or environmental hazard)

OK, so here is the situation. I hit into the grass, everyone agrees. I declare I am invoking the rule, everyone hears me and says OK. I drop and while I am pulling a club out of my bag, a member of the foursome who decided to look for my ball ANYway says "I FOUND IT!" He did, in fact, find it.

So, what are my options at that point?

[iacas]

  Fat Slice said:

So, what are my options at that point?

I'd find a new group of people to play with. People who don't make up their own rules...?

[clubchamp]

I don't think there would be a correct answer since it isn't a rule. If I had to guess if you are playing it as a lateral hazard it wouldn't matter if he found it or just take the unplayable.

[Fat Slice]

This is found as a "local rule" on that scorecard (and on a few other places I have played). I understand it is not a USGA rule - maybe I should have posted in The Grill Room, OK.

Is it correct to ignore local rules as far as handicap scoring goes? On the first hole of another course around here there is some kind of super-special environmental area where it's posted to take a free (no penalty) lateral drop. Should I score it taking the penalty anyway?

[Shindig]

I'd say you continue as if he didn't find it, except you can pick up the old one and put it on your bag (or use it for the drop, if the new one isn't in play).

Suppose, under normal rules, you hit a ball and don't know where it is. You can hit a provisional. Now, if you like where the provisional is, and don't think you can improve upon this even if you find the original ball, you can declare the original to be lost. If someone else finds it, you still declared it lost, and it's gone.

I think once you declare what happened to the ball in a situation like this, that's what happened.

[Shanks A Million]

  Fat Slice said:

Here's one I would like to understand better...happened to me last year.

I would consider it a free chance. Tell him that because he found it, you can play it as it lies with no penalty. Although you put another ball into play, your playing competitor was the one who found your ball, so therefore, he has granted you a favor, right? I mean, who can argue with that?

[zeg]

  Shindig said:

Suppose, under normal rules, you hit a ball and don't know where it is. You can hit a provisional. Now, if you like where the provisional is, and don't think you can improve upon this even if you find the original ball, you can declare the original to be lost. If someone else finds it, you still declared it lost, and it's gone.

That is incorrect. Whether a ball is lost or not is a question of fact and not something that can be declared. Until you've put another ball in play (e.g., by actually playing your provisional, by playing another ball without announcing it as a provisional) or until the five minute time limit for searching has expired, if the ball is found, your provisional is abandoned and you must either play the original ball (if possible) or return to the tee for stroke and distance. So if someone wants to be a jerk, they can continue looking for your ball "for you" until you take an action that causes the original ball to meet the definition of lost.

Relevant decisions: 27/16 Ball declared lost is found before another ball put in play, 27-2b/1 Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball, 27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play. I found the latter particularly interesting: if you hole out your provisional, your opponent has 5 minutes to find your ball or until you pick your ball out of the cup during which he can search for your ball and force you to play it)

[Ignorant]

  Fat Slice said:

This is found as a "local rule" on that scorecard (and on a few other places I have played). I understand it is not a USGA rule - maybe I should have posted in The Grill Room, OK.

This sounds a bit strange as no Local Rule may modify actual Rules of Golf. That means for example that tall grass cannot be defined as lateral water hazard by the Committee unless the area fulfils the definition of a water hazard. Mere intentions to speed up the play is not a valid justification. I do know that this kind of local rules exist but they are simply against the Rules of Golf and should be discarded. No way any official scores should be accepted if such 'rules' have been invoked.

Environmental area is a completely different issue and even there the Committee cannot do whatever it wants. An environmentally sensitive area (ESA) is something defined by authorities and Committee only makes a local rule to prohibit play from ESA (App. I B 2b). These areas are declared as ground under repair (GUR) and Rule 25-1 applies, i.e. relief is to be taken with no penalty. The only way the Committee would be justified to help players to get relief from tall grass is to declare those areas as GUR. However, that would be slightly awkward as a much better solution would be to cut down the grass if it is regarded as a mere hindrance and not a deliberate difficulty for the players.

[soloredd]

I see you are from Nor Cal. This wouldn't happen to be at Metropolitan Golf Links or a course similar? Poppy Ridge is another one that comes to mind - there are environmental protection areas and as such, the scorecard says (if I do remember correctly) you can get a free drop if it goes in.

Another one is this: at a local course here there are electric wires going across 2 fairways. Rules on the scorecard say if you tee off and hit the wires, you can tee up another ball without penalty. Now, I've always played my ball as it "falls" but some friends I play with re-tee their ball. I guess the difference here is it is because it's a man-made object??

[Ignorant]

  soloredd said:

I see you are from Nor Cal. This wouldn't happen to be at Metropolitan Golf Links or a course similar? Poppy Ridge is another one that comes to mind - there are environmental protection areas and as such, the scorecard says (if I do remember correctly) you can get a free drop if it goes in.

A recommended local rule exists and if it is applied on that particular course then one MUST replay the shot without penalty. If this local rule is not in use then ball is to be played as it lies. This has nothing to do about man-made or not, the idea is that those wires are an outside factor and cannot have been helped by the course. Thus a player is not to be penalized for a good (nor a bad) shot hitting the wires.

[ugottabjoshinme]

  soloredd said:

I see you are from Nor Cal. This wouldn't happen to be at Metropolitan Golf Links or a course similar? Poppy Ridge is another one that comes to mind - there are environmental protection areas and as such, the scorecard says (if I do remember correctly) you can get a free drop if it goes in.

Isn't it actually in the rules that you can re-tee without penalty. This happened on the LPGA this last weekend. The girl that won hit power lines that were going across the fairway and she re-teed her ball. The commentator said she was required to rehit, regaurdless of where the first ball ended up.

[mjtoal]

  soloredd said:

I see you are from Nor Cal. This wouldn't happen to be at Metropolitan Golf Links or a course similar? Poppy Ridge is another one that comes to mind - there are environmental protection areas and as such, the scorecard says (if I do remember correctly) you can get a free drop if it goes in.

Overhead wires is a well known situation. Most courses that have overhead wires have a local rule saying you

must replay the ball if it hits overhead wires. I have never seen one which says otherwise, but I guess there may be some. In this case, failing to replay is a breach of the Rules.

[Fat Slice]

  soloredd said:

I see you are from Nor Cal. This wouldn't happen to be at Metropolitan Golf Links or a course similar?

Yes, the first hole at metro has a sign that says "environmental, free lateral drop". Other environmental hazards at that course just have the green tipped red stakes, so you take a lateral drop but also take a stroke penalty. It's only the first hole that has the 'free drop' designation.

[zeg]

  mjtoal said:

Overhead wires is a well known situation. Most courses that have overhead wires have a local rule saying you

I believe a rule that allows you the option to rehit would not be allowed. The permissible local rule says you MUST replay. Basically, either the wires have to be considered part of the course (i.e., hitting them is a rub of the green so you take what you get) or not , you can't have it both ways. The rule I find is in the specimen local rules in Appendix I of the rules of golf, but it deals with temporary obstructions. It'd seem that if this is also permissible for permanently-fixed power lines, the same logic would have to apply.