If Tiger switched to Stack & Tilt...

[Cussin hacker]

?!?Those pesky neck problems are always a result of being "mentally unfit."

Yes that is part of it.

[Cussin hacker]

Mental is part of the physical.

[colin007]

Tiger's had to time a massive loop and a rotating hands flip in his swing for years simply because he didn't want to be "across the line" (despite > 90° shoulder turn) and because Butch Harmon was being a bit too vocal. I don't know if that makes him an idiot, but it sure as hell doesn't make him a genius.

just wondering, in your opinion is "across the line" as bad as everyone says it is?

[golf junkie]

Tiger needs to go stack and tilt with the experts and not mess around--he is too great. I understand those guys know his swing better than he does and that that collect swing pictures and have studied him for years? He needs to get the right help and stop messing around.

Lets go Tiger!!!! Tim Clark is a SnT isnt he? Well, I know he was as I saw him with them. He played great!

With all the talk about Tiger possibly firing Haney, imagine if he started working with Andy and Mike.

agreed. I believe he should try it for a month with these guys and see how he feels. On the Charlie Rose show they made a fan of me. I am a Tiger fan all the way and the passion I saw from those guys is what Tiger needs. The obviously are good, what the teach is seen in bits and pieces of so many on the tour and other teachers are moving that direction. He would be mistaken to go with any other. If I were his dad, I would be talking to him now.

[iacas]

just wondering, in your opinion is "across the line" as bad as everyone says it is?

No. If you rotate your shoulders more than 90°, you SHOULD be across the line. Your club should only be parallel to the target line when you've rotated 90°.

For the average player it's a death move, typically, because all they do from there is throw their arms out and come over the top. (Oddly, if the average player is laid off they do the same thing but they do so more by spinning out the hips and shoulders. Either way, the average golfer slices like crazy.)

Tiger needs to go stack and tilt with the experts and not mess around--he is too great. I understand those guys know his swing better than he does and that that collect swing pictures and have studied him for years? He needs to get the right help and stop messing around.

They have. Mike and Andy have studied the swings of a LOT of players. They're geeks (in a good way) and they like to know what works and what doesn't. They literally sit around in their golf cleats in their hotel beds and watch golf tournaments and video and talk about golf swings virtually 24/7.

Tim Clark is a SnT isnt he? Well, I know he was as I saw him with them. He played great!

He's not, but he is very close to the model. Mike and Andy love a lot of the things he does in his swing.

[Stretch]

I think if S&T wants a truly class player to, in a sense, validate the model -- they're going to have to roll one themselves. So far, the competitive performance of the "poster boys" has been pretty poor, not that that tells us anything conclusive. Could be that the guys who picked it up were strugglers anyway, one way or another, and the pattern helped them do better than the path they were on before, but couldn't vault them that far above their natural talent level.

Still, for all the "hottest new tour swing" magazine BS, I don't think S&T is going to acquire canonical legitimacy until you have a player consistently winning, and preferably dominating, while vocally adhering to the method.

And, realistically, that's not going to be Tiger, sorry!

[Dana Dahlquist]

Mike and Andy are not the type of guys who prospect for talent. Butch does, and hard too. In fact he got rid of a few in his stable that he could not help this last year. A well known tour player told me that btw, that was in that stable. But I gues thats a smart business move on his part.

[iacas]

I think if S&T wants a truly class player to, in a sense, validate the model -- they're going to have to roll one themselves.

The thing is, that's 10 years away or so (and best case they'll find someone who can consistently play in the top 10 of the OWGR, they won't be Tiger/Phil level). And they might not come up via Mike or Andy, but some other S&T teacher somewhere, or even someone who teaches his player the S&T pattern without calling it that...

So far, the competitive performance of the "poster boys" has been pretty poor, not that that tells us anything conclusive.

As you said, a lot of these guys wouldn't even be on the PGA Tour without S&T.; And Aaron Baddeley and Mike Weir recovered from slumps - and played good to great golf - while using S&T.; Since "switching back" (disclaimer: they still "know" the S&T information) they've again dropped off.

Would it greatly help the S&T camp if they had some superstar admit to trying to use the S&T pattern? Sure. Will it happen? Probably not. S&T is maligned out of ignorance a lot of the time. I've said before (probably in this thread) that virtually every PGA Tour pro employs 80-90% of the S&T pattern. It's not a crazy swing, a reverse pivot, you don't literally lean towards the target on the backswing, and your weight still goes right (but the "feeling" is that it doesn't). And Stretch, I'm fairly certain you know this, so this is more to others who might read it.

Still, for all the "hottest new tour swing" magazine BS, I don't think S&T is going to acquire canonical legitimacy until you have a player consistently winning, and preferably dominating, while vocally adhering to the method.

See what Dana said... and what I said above.

And, realistically, that's not going to be Tiger, sorry!

99.999% chance you're right. But this whole thread is puffery and fantasy, right?

[colin007]

erik, in your opinion, do you think tiger is going to switch coaches any time soon?

[Stretch]

And Stretch, I'm fairly certain you know this, so this is more to others who might read it.

Hey, you know I'm on the bus!

[Cussin hacker]

You all have sold me on S&T.; Not going that way due to health and no time to practice/ take lessons but it does look like a good swing model. I'm working on a one plane swing when I play. Played much better before I slowly got away from it. Haven't been out in 3 weeks. Ugg..:( Does S&T use that idea?

[iacas]

erik, in your opinion, do you think tiger is going to switch coaches any time soon?

Depends on how you define "soon" but yes, I think he will. Would I be willing to bet much money on it - no, probably not. I was once impressed by Tiger's golf intelligence but I question that more and more as time goes on.

[michaeljames92]

Kind of funny seeing this thread after what has happened. I'm surprised he didn't end up going with Grant Waite since they're good mates and Tiger reckons he has the best swing. Hoping Tiger improves and contend later on this year.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Kind of funny seeing this thread after what has happened. I'm surprised he didn't end up going with Grant Waite since they're good mates and Tiger reckons he has the best swing. Hoping Tiger improves and contend later on this year.

Who else does Waite coach?

[michaeljames92]

Not sure exactly, but I know at the Viking he was playing and teaching some other guys too. Pretty cool hey?

EDIT: His son is an absolute gun too. His son Osten's swing looks almost textbook S&T;

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Who else does Waite coach?

[nevets88]

I think the proof is in the pudding so to speak is already out there - if you look at Dana Dahlquist's or Golf Evolution's before and after videos, you see measureable results and not just with college players and good amateurs but high handicaps. It's unfortunate it takes a high profile player to get "legit". And an average player improving has more relevance as a tour player already has alot of talent. If the average player improvement were marketed, maybe some inroads could be made. I haven't seen any before or after vids from Harmon, Haney, Ledbetter or the like or maybe I just overlooked them?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Not sure exactly, but I know at the Viking he was playing and teaching some other guys too. Pretty cool hey?

Which players? How'd they do? Based on his winnings (last decade) I thought he'd retired.

[michaeljames92]

To be honest I can't remember. But I remember reading an article about it. He's done a great job with his son's swing though. Yeah He's more or less retired I think he just had the option to play since it was an alternate event. He only just missed the cut.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Which players? How'd they do? Based on his winnings (last decade) I thought he'd retired.