Sandbagging is alive and well

[Doctorfro]

I played in a club event this weekend (two day net) and one-third of the field shot better than their handicap. (Most of those were 10-15 handicappers). Thought the odds of that might be quite high. Found THIS LINK . Makes me want to stay home next time.

[Fairway_CY]

I'm seriously tired of hearing the word 'sandbagging'. I play in a club where net scores are used every week. Based on the link you posted... nobody in the club should have a net average about say... 76? There are 16 guys out of 48 who are at a 76.0 net average or better through 5 events.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. The majority of guys in our club are between 10.0 and 23.0 handicaps. That means there is a VERY good chance that these players will IMPROVE at some time. You low handicappers weren't ALWAYS low handicappers. You had to work your way down.

I began my club season with net scores of 71, 73 and 66. My last two events have seen me shoot net scores of 80 and 78. My net scoring average with the club is at 73.8 and overall, my net scoring average is 71.0 with 9 rounds logged so far this season. It's called IMPROVEMENT.

Say what you will... the odds are what they are based on the assumption that the person is going to be that number FOREVER. That's just not true. I've dropped my handicap from 27.4 at the beginning of last season to an 18.9 as of right now. I've done that by getting better, which yields better net scores. If you can't face that fact... then, yes... stay home and stop competing in net tournaments. Instead, take your 5.5 handicap and put it up against golfers of similar ability in flighted tournaments. But stop crying about it... you all have the same things to say over and over, but nobody is realizing that at one point or another... you were ALSO a high handicapper... even if just for a short period of time.

CY

[doctork]

That is truly striking, my fellow Doc. Not to mention disturbing, as it relates to your experience.

Any idea what the USGA considers an "exceptional tournament score"?

The second chart was way beyond my statistical comprehension, but the first chart told me all I needed to know.

Sandbaggers are evil!

DoctorK

[microcrayfish]

Although I'm sure that there was some sand bagging going on you also have to remember that those statistics assume the person's handicap is stable. If you're on the improve then it's not such a rare feat to often shoot below your handicap. I made a few changes to my swing and started playing a lot better so I've shot below my handicap 10 of my last 15 posted rounds (often well below), consequently my handicap's dropped about 6 strokes in that time. If I happened to play a tournament in that time should I be accused of sand bagging because I'm getting better at golf?

[clubchamp]

I'm seriously tired of hearing the word 'sandbagging'. I play in a club where net scores are used every week. Based on the link you posted...

Much like he is making the assumption they were sandbagging... you are making the assumption they weren't sandbagging. I think your post is very valid people do improve but sandbagging is the guy with 20 handicap shooting low 80s every time there's a tourney. I wouldn't call anyone a sandbagger but if you are shooting 10 shots lower than your index every tourney than yes I will use the term sandbagger. This is why I stay away from net tourneys because there's a better chance of a 15 handicap shooting 80 than there is of a low handicap player shooting 67.

[Doctorfro]

I realize that people improve. And yes, I have shot below my handicap in a tournament. But the chances are slim that you will do it often. If you had said 15-20% of the field had shot better than their handicap I could have swallowed that OK. But one third? I realize not all these guys have bogus handicaps but there's no way that many guys shoot under their cap. I know for a fact from other participants that some of these guys don't post all their low scores (especially their low tourney scores). I was told that we didn't have to worry about posting our scores after this event because the staff was going to do that, ensuring that EVERY player gets their scores posted (obviously a problem). Handicaps are not averages and that many players "stepping" up their games significantly in a tournament is highly unlikely. And, btw, I have never complained about this before on these forums.

[Rexx]

Yep, as said: people improve and people cheat. As with most handicapped "sports", being better is a disadvantage, unless you're elite. At least in bowling leagues, they can only do the former. Inevitably, it's almost always a group of new bowlers that take the title every year (or sandbaggers... ha!).

[IcemanYVR]

I hate sandbaggers. Sandbagging is cheating... plain and simple.

We had a guy in a club I used to be a member at... 20 handicap, yet everytime a tournament rolled around, he managed to shoot between 78 and 82. Same old story, same old lines... "what a day" or "I played out of my mind"... just made people sick.

I played with him once during a casual round, and privately kept score for him on his card... wasn't too hard very clean 76 or 77. Asked him what he shot, he flat out lied and when we entered our scores into the computer, he put in a score 10 or 15 strokes higher. Golf is frustrating enough... we don't need jerks like that in the game.

[VMAN]

This is one of the reason handicaps are now updated every 15 days and not monthly. It helps to keep up with improving players.

But, yes, there are people out there who don't turn in certain scores...pathetic

[Shindig]

What sorts of things does your club do to combat sandbagging? My club uses the better of your last six months' worth of handicap or the best 2 (or is it 3?) of your last 6 (I think) tournament scores when you're playing in a tournament.

[kpaulhus]

Ive seen some sandbagging, but my handicap has dropped 4 strokes since Jan, so Improvement at this point is possible.

[Fairway_CY]

What sorts of things does your club do to combat sandbagging? My club uses the better of your last six months' worth of handicap or the best 2 (or is it 3?) of your last 6 (I think) tournament scores when you're playing in a tournament.

All scores within the club are verified (signed and attested scorecards) and then entered by the handicap committee. Outside the club... there really isn't MUCH that they can do... but if they find that you've played a round and it hasn't been reported... you are given a week to report it or you play off scratch for the remainder of the year.

While I agree that there ARE sandbaggers... I hear the term used WAY too loosely. It seems like ANY time a 15 handicap shoots 84 or better on a par 72 course... they are sandbagging. It bothers me because I've been improving so I can compete WITHOUT handicaps with some of the guys I know who hold handicaps below 10. I guess I'm overly sensitive because I've been called a sandbagger before BECAUSE I'm improving. Actually... my last two club rounds have been my worst rounds of the season... with one of my best rounds EVER sandwhiched in between and it WASN'T a club round... just a casual round with some friends. Either way... sorry I jumped on the OP about this. Just wanted to make the point that the USGA list that he linked to is kinda not really valid. It's only valid if a person is going to be at a certain handicap number for eternity... and they don't really put that disclaimer on that page... and I see a LOT of guys who point to that page as a reference when they lose to a 15 - 20 handicap player. Thanks for letting me rant and please accept my apologies. CY

[Doctorfro]

Thanks for letting me rant and please accept my apologies.

No worries. And I def understand your point. I've actually gone to numerous sites/pages with formulas and odds (many of which are confusing) but the bottom line is there must be a flaw in all this and it's people. Some people manipulate the system so they can gain some glory or bragging rights or earn some bucks or whatever. If all players simply played their best, posted all their scores....this system would work pretty well. It's sad that we even have these discussions. Trust me, this is not sour grapes on my part. It's a lack of integrity that bothers me. I love to cheer that player who has a better than average day. But when that player has those days only in tournaments or when moneys on the line.....makes you say "hmmm?" And it makes me question why I would play in say our match play championship when chances are I will run into a guy who's a 10-15 and I have to give up that many strokes to a guy who really only averages 80-82 in score ( my scoring average for the last three years is 81.5, you can check my scores below). It's just very discouraging. Sorry for the extra rant.

[enis750]

Much like he is making the assumption they were sandbagging... you are making the assumption they weren't sandbagging. I think your post is very valid people do improve but sandbagging is the guy with 20 handicap shooting low 80s every time there's a tourney. I wouldn't call anyone a sandbagger but if you are shooting 10 shots lower than your index every tourney than yes I will use the term sandbagger. This is why I stay away from net tourneys because there's a better chance of a 15 handicap shooting 80 than there is of a low handicap player shooting 67.

my thoughts exactly

anytime one of these "net tournament" posts come up its always the same thing high hcper's complaining that us "low" hcpers were once bad golfers too......thats not the point of this or any post yes, we all had higher indexes at one point - but you know what .... I can honestly say that I have never shot over 100 in my entire life golfing i still remeber my first round as a junior shooting 89 this game is more than learning, you have to have some natural athletic ability as well, and wicked hand eye now back on topic they say you only shoot your index 25% of the time on average then why do the "12-14" guys always seem to come out and shoot low 80's in a tourney, more often than not? giving a guy 7-8 strokes, I shoot 76 and he shoots 80 and waxes me in match play? this is BS IMO i have said it before and i will say it again......qualify the previous day, flight everyone and get at er HEADS UP and now see who comes out on top I played against a guy this weekend who says hes an 8...ok, I give him 4, not too bad dudes shoots a 73....a freaking 73!!!!! my ass your an 8 it has been 2 days since that match and guess what .... no score entered in the computer says he has been out lots this year too and only 3 scores entered from a month ago....all mid to high 80's rounds........

[ET-Taylor]

I dont see the point in trying to keep your handicap up would you not rather brag about being a single figures golfer

[shades9323]

I dont see the point in trying to keep your handicap up would you not rather brag about being a single figures golfer

No, they would rather win money!

[sean_miller]

I dont see the point in trying to keep your handicap up would you not rather brag about being a single figures golfer

Someone could massage their handicap up or down pretty easily - just entering the round for a different set of tees. the course I played yesterday was rated at 69.0 with a slope of 122 from the silvers. If I'd entered my score as having played the blacks, my differential would have been 2.5 lower. Somebody playing the blacks could enter the silvers (or blues or whites) and really bump their index up.

Honesty is a great policy - it helps guage improvement.

[rjfan91]

I'm the handicap chair of our club. I hear about "sandbagging" complaints all the time. Most often, people claim that players are driving up their scores with fluff rounds so that they can kill all the tournaments. However, it's kinda hard to sandbag with the way the USGA system treats tournament rounds. At most, these guys could hit a couple of tournaments before they would get a tournament adjustment.