Provisional goes in the water, first ball in play?

[rebby]

Way wrong here. No where in 28/a does it mention you're allowed to continue with a provisional. Your only options are drops near where the ball was declared unplayable.

Correct, you can not play from the point of the provisional. I was mistaken on that account. However, you can proceed from an unplayable lie under penalty of stroke and distance under option a you just can't use the provisional hit due to a potential lost ball to do it.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable. If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke: a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

[Fourputt]

I don't think so..

No it is not. First let me give you my qualifications: I am an on course rules official for the Colorado Golf Association, so I have some slight knowledge of the Rules of Golf.

When he hit the provisional ball into the hazard, he is allowed to continue play with that ball or another ball substituted under a rule until such time as he reaches the place where the original ball is thought to be lost. The provisional ball, or in this case the substituted ball, is still being played under Rule 27-2, even though he is proceeding under the water hazard rule, the penalty for that is only applied against the provisional ball. He has not done anything to cause the original ball to be deemed lost. He did NOT tee up another provisional ball, he legally substituted a ball for the original provisional ball under Rule 26-1a, but that third ball is still counted as part of the procedure for the first provisional ball. His provisional ball now lies 3 just by the strokes counted against it alone, and if it ever becomes the ball in play, he will lie 5 because of the stroke and distance penalty against the original ball. The original ball can only be deemed lost by an act which makes it so. Just because he hit another ball from the tee, that does not make it the ball in play because it was played correctly under a rule that only applied to the provisional ball . Had the provisional ball been hit out of bounds, then you would be correct, but that is not the case here. He did not have to go and search for anything. He knew that the provisional ball was lost in a water hazard. He was allowed to continue with the stroke and distance penalty under Rule 26-1a assessed against the provisional ball. Once the original ball was found the provisional ball was abandoned, and any strokes made at it or any penalties incurred against it are not counted. I can't make it any clearer than that. If you still don't get it, then you just have to go on faith. I KNOW that my assessment is right for the facts as presented. All you have to do is to realize is that the third ball was not an unannounced provisional ball, and it was not played as stroke and distance against the first ball. He was simply following a proper rule with the first provisional ball.

[saevel25]

I can buy that..

[CarlSpackler]

Yep, my bad. Addressed here ->

No worries. Is it sick that I get into rules this much though?

[Fourputt]

No worries. Is it sick that I get into rules this much though?

Not sick.... at least I don't see myself as such. Maybe a bit obsessed.

I love these discussions. This one was especially interesting because it did throw an extra monkey wrench into the equation.

[Fourputt]

Had I declaired the third shot a provisional as well, I could have played the first? is that the rule?

One more quick comment... The third ball was not, and could never have been a provisional ball, because you can't play a provisional ball if the ball it is played against is thought to be in a water hazard. Each provisional ball played only relates to the ball immediately preceding it. Since the first provisional ball was known to be in a water hazard, the next ball played was being played under Rule 26-1a whether the player realized it or not. No other course of action was possible under the rules.

[CarlSpackler]

Here would be an interesting monkey wrench; a player plays a provisional for a OB but then cannot find their ball, hence it is lost. Do they have to take a walk back to the tee even though they are pretty sure that it went OB?

[mjtoal]

Providing you properly declare them as such, you can play a basket full of provisionals, but if you then find your original tee ball in play within 5 minutes of starting to look, you then are only playing your second shot, get no penalty, and you can pick up or abandon all the provisionals.

[mjtoal]

Here would be an interesting monkey wrench; a player plays a provisional for a OB but then cannot find their ball, hence it is lost. Do they have to take a walk back to the tee even though they are pretty sure that it went OB?

Do you mean that both the first tee shot and the provisional went OB? If so, start walking. No drop for OB.

[CarlSpackler]

Do you mean that both the first tee shot and the provisional went OB? If so, start walking. No drop for OB.

The 1st appears to go OB so you hit a provisional (for OB) in play. Since you can't find the first (meaning it is lost) is your provisional (hit for OB not lost) invalid requiring you to hit another tee shot (3rd) from the tee box. I know most people would go to their provisional and play their 4th shot, but I think you need to go back to the tee and play your 3rd shot over since you declared the provisional of OB, not a lost ball.

This is not related to the OPs question and should probably be a new thread with a hypothetical scenerio, so please accept my appoligy for tagging on here.

[James_Black]

Here would be an interesting monkey wrench; a player plays a provisional for a OB but then cannot find their ball, hence it is lost. Do they have to take a walk back to the tee even though they are pretty sure that it went OB?

they can't find the provisional?

if they find the provisional they play it. If they don't find it they have to walk back to the teebox and take their 6th shot.

[Ignorant]

they can't find the provisional?

Why 6th shot? Why not 5th?

[Ignorant]

The 1st appears to go OB so you hit a provisional (for OB) in play. Since you can't find the first (meaning it is lost) is your provisional (hit for OB not lost) invalid requiring you to hit another tee shot (3rd) from the tee box. I know most people would go to their provisional and play their 4th shot, but I think you need to go back to the tee and play your 3rd shot over since you declared the provisional of OB, not a lost ball.

If the original is lost or OB one must continue with the provisional ball. If the provisional ball is lost or OB as well, then one must bo back to the tee and hit another ball. That would be player's 5th stroke. If the provisional ball is lost or OB and original is in play one must continue with the opriginal ball.

[James_Black]

Why 6th shot? Why not 5th?

counted wrong lol.

sorry!

[RemyM]

The 1st appears to go OB so you hit a provisional (for OB) in play. Since you can't find the first (meaning it is lost) is your provisional (hit for OB not lost) invalid requiring you to hit another tee shot (3rd) from the tee box. I know most people would go to their provisional and play their 4th shot, but I think you need to go back to the tee and play your 3rd shot over since you declared the provisional of OB, not a lost ball.

It's the same difference, a provisional is for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard or OB. You don't declare it for one or the other specifically, so if the original ball is not found within 5 minutes or found out of bounds the provisional becomes your ball in play.

[alf174]

This happened to me yesterday. I hit my 1st & thought it might be OB beyond a hill down the side, so I declared I was hitting a provisional and hit my 3rd almost to the exact same spot & again lost sight of it. So I declared yet another provisional, teed up, and hit my 5th down the fairway. When I got down beyond the hill I found my first two balls. So I picked up the provisionals and continued playing my first to my great relief. (my partners thought I was nuts but they change the rules as they go anyways)

[CarlSpackler]

It's the same difference, a provisional is for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard or OB. You don't declare it for one or the other specifically, so if the original ball is not found within 5 minutes or found out of bounds the provisional becomes your ball in play.

I did some searching and can't find any reason why you need to declare if for one vs. the other, so I think you are correct. Disregard.

[zeg]

It's the same difference, a provisional is for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard or OB. You don't declare it for one or the other specifically, so if the original ball is not found within 5 minutes or found out of bounds the provisional becomes your ball in play.

This is correct. CarlSpackler's scenario isn't really a wrinkle to the rules, it's a wrinkle to understanding them. If you don't find the ball or find it OB, your provisional is in play, along with any strokes or penalties applied to the task of bringing it up to the point where you searched for your original ball. If you find your original ball in a hazard, then your provisional is also in play since you weren't entitled to a provisional in the first place (i.e., you can't opt to play out of the hazard, your "provisional" was in play as a substitution under stroke+distance)