Oh, Peter Kostis... (on Dean Wilson)!

[TempoIsKey]

When I hear an announcer talk about maintaining the right knee flex, I assume they mean that the player should maintain the same flex they have at address throughout the entire swing. Paul's right knee does maintain "some" flex but it visibly does straigten to some degree during the backswing as do most if not all good ballstrikers. If someone has a video of a good ballstriker maintaining the exact same flex throughout the swing, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[iacas]

on thing about the stack n tilt. I think that if you are going to use stack n tilt then you have to do the swing straight textbook and not just lean on your left side the entire swing because that isnt a good technique.

No offense, but you were probably doing it wrong. We see it day in and day out - we teach people based on the geometry of the swing and our bodies and work on one piece at a time, and they get better as you continue to layer in the pieces they need. Almost nobody we teach does "the full S&T; swing," and it's very much a swing that you can apply in pieces.

That's just not often something you can do "on your own." But that's true of any golf swing - very few people are capable of learning something on their own, and those that are tend to do so more slowly than with qualified help.

Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, but Casey certainly appears to be maintaining flex in his rear knee.

Kostis wants you to maintain the SAME flex. Even S&T; doesn't care if you retain SOME flex so long as the knee straightens (i.e. loses some flex, straightens is not the same as "locks out") a little bit.

That video is nearly as bad as the Dean Wilson video I posted, but at least Peter limits his mistakes to only one (because he only talks about the one topic). Regardless, as knee flex isn't discussed in the videos above, it's a bit off-topic. Plus, we have another whole thread for knee flex.

[motteler621]

No offense, but you were probably doing it wrong. We see it day in and day out - we teach people based on the geometry of the swing and our bodies and work on one piece at a time, and they get better as you continue to layer in the pieces they need. Almost nobody we teach does "the full S&T; swing," and it's very much a swing that you can apply in pieces.

yea Im sure I was doing it wrong. The only thing I was doing was keeping both feet straight and putting most of my weight on my left side the entire swing. I think alot of people just do this from the videos they post when starting to keep weight only on the left side. I guess im just on to something new since my golf pro started teaching me the traditional way and Ive seen better results and feel, thats why I say get instruction from someone who teaches stack n tilt if you want to go that route instead of only putting weight on the left side. I will say this though, since i was keeping my weight on my left side the whole time before I now have alot better weight transfer to my front foot with the new swing im using.

[Zeph]

How can you expect to see results using only "put weight on the left side" as a reference? The weight-shift-back-swing also gets the weight to the left side through the downswing. S&T; makes it easier because you don't move the body back on the backswing. That is really the only big difference between S&T; and the more common swing teachings. The important part of the swing is still to get the weight far enough forward, that goes for any swing out there. S&T; is developed to make golf easier, especially for beginners. What I enjoy most about S&T; is how everything is explained. Instead of saying "avoid that bucket when you swing" and place a bucket outside the ball on the range. That won't teach the student anything. S&T; explains what you should do, how you should do it, and why you should do it.

Look up the "S&T; is traditional" post somewhere on this forum.

[Chillmoon91]

Im watching langer now and hes keeping that knee flex, but then look at phil, hes the complete opposite! I still think people are being a little harsh on peter k, he may not know his S&T; but hes a world class coach none the less. I was wondering when becoming an instructor, do you decide to be a S&t; instructor or just pick it up after or what?

[motteler621]

How can you expect to see results using only "put weight on the left side" as a reference? The weight-shift-back-swing also gets the weight to the left side through the downswing. S&T; makes it easier because you don't move the body back on the backswing. That is really the only big difference between S&T; and the more common swing teachings. The important part of the swing is still to get the weight far enough forward, that goes for any swing out there. S&T; is developed to make golf easier, especially for beginners. What I enjoy most about S&T; is how everything is explained. Instead of saying "avoid that bucket when you swing" and place a bucket outside the ball on the range. That won't teach the student anything. S&T; explains what you should do, how you should do it, and why you should do it.

yea but from what instruction ive seen on stack n tilt is that the backswing/rotation back with the shoulders and core is differnt than the traditional swing. When keeping the weight on the left side the entire time you are limited on your backswing unless you do those moves.

[Zeph]

yea but from what instruction ive seen on stack n tilt is that the backswing/rotation back with the shoulders and core is differnt than the traditional swing. When keeping the weight on the left side the entire time you are limited on your backswing unless you do those moves.

You don't keep the weight on the left side the entire time, but less is moved back. You still move the weight back with S&T.; The centers don't move back, that is the difference. It does not limit anything on the backswing.

[iacas]

Im watching langer now and hes keeping that knee flex, but then look at phil, hes the complete opposite! I still think people are being a little harsh on peter k, he may not know his S&T; but hes a world class coach none the less.

We're not being too harsh. He's spouting misinformation. I'd like to educate people. He's dumbing people down by telling mistruths and not understanding what he's talking about.

Could we all "be nice" to him and not point out his errors? Sure, but where would that get us? What would that do except LOWER the level of understanding that's out there? He chooses to open his mouth and say what he says. If he's wrong, he's opened the door to be (rightly) criticized. Being too hard on him? No. Does he know a lot about the golf swing? I'm told he does but haven't seen a lot of evidence of it, frankly... does he teach some guys who play well? No doubt.

yea but from what instruction ive seen on stack n tilt is that the backswing/rotation back with the shoulders and core is differnt than the traditional swing. When keeping the weight on the left side the entire time you are limited on your backswing unless you do those moves.

You're simply referring to "traditional" as "the past 20 years" while I am referring to "traditional" as "what Ben Hogan did" or "the swing from the 1940s through the 70s or so." Heck, Jack Nicklaus kept his head centered. He didn't have a big sway off the golf ball. Zeph already told you and this line of discussion is off topic, so look it up - the "Stack and Tilt is traditional" thread.

[akgolfnut]

Kostis should not be analyzing swings on tv if he doesn't know what he is talking about it. I just saw him analyze Wilson's iron swing about an hour ago, and he clearly mentioned Wilson using SnT, and said he tilts back to the right on his downswing, and that's the tilt part of the technique. I'm just learning the swing and have read the book, that is not what I understood the tilt part to be about.

Oh, and someone mentioned that Andy and Mike shouldn't have labeled the swing -- from what I have heard (not sure if true or not), Golf Digest said they were not going to print the original article about the swing technique (the one with Baddeley) unless they gave it a name. Andy and Mike balked, and Charlie Wi said "tilt and stacked", so then GD reversed it to say "Stack and Tilt". FWIW.

[iacas]

Kostis should not be analyzing swings on tv if he doesn't know what he is talking about it. I just saw him analyze Wilson's iron swing about an hour ago, and he clearly mentioned Wilson using SnT, and said he

You're probably right. I can also say that Peter Kostis is not. That's definitely NOT the tilt part of the technique.

There is a tilt on the right side of the body - secondary axis tilt - but it comes from the hips pushing forward, and it's NOT where the name comes from at all. The "tilt" is the left tilt on the backswing which maintains your inclination to the ground WHICH is what keeps your head steady.

Oh, and someone mentioned that Andy and Mike shouldn't have labeled the swing -- from what I have heard (not sure if true or not), Golf Digest said they were not going to print the original article about the swing technique (the one with Baddeley) unless they gave it a name. Andy and Mike balked, and Charlie Wi said "tilt and stacked", so then GD reversed it to say "Stack and Tilt". FWIW.

Yes, that's the story I've heard straight from Mike and Andy.

Dave (I may have helped come up with the name but it's at least 95% his, and may be 99% or more) have a good name that we like. Just for the heck of it - we're not gonna use it or anything - but it's "ARC Golf" - where A.R.C. is an acronym for "Aligned Radial Compression." My business cards will read "Swing ARChitect."

[bplewis24]

and said he

My memory may be off (I'm sure somebody can find the video in a day or two), but I didn't think he said he tilts back right, I thought he said he "stayed back to his right" too much on that particular swing. Like he was stuck and didn't get his weight forward.

[iacas]

My memory may be off (I'm sure somebody can find the video in a day or two), but I didn't think he said he tilts back right, I thought he said he "stayed back to his right" too much on that particular swing. Like he was stuck and didn't get his weight forward.

The video's right there in the first post. "His upper body will tilt back to the right" Peter Kostis says - plain as day.

[sean_miller]

My memory may be off (I'm sure somebody can find the video in a day or two), but I didn't think he said he tilts back right, I thought he said he "stayed back to his right" too much on that particular swing. Like he was stuck and didn't get his weight forward.

He said both. He got the tilt part wrong, then he was saying Dean didn't stay on his left enough, and that's why he pulled the layup. I got the impression Kostis was actually trying to say Dean needed to stay more true to the SnT method - he just apparently doesn't understand what that means.

[iacas]

FWIW Dean's an example of a guy who does all of the pieces of S&T...; but none of them particularly well (though he does have the side tilting down, as his head stays quite steady). He does them "okay" but not to the extent of Charlie Wi or some other guys (who might do some pieces better but some others a bit worse). In particular, Dean's hand path could be deeper and his hip slide could be a bit more aggressive.

[nevets88]

Dave (I may have helped come up with the name but it's at least 95% his, and may be 99% or more) have a good name that we like. Just for the heck of it - we're not gonna use it or anything - but it's "ARC Golf" - where A.R.C. is an acronym for "Aligned Radial Compression." My business cards will read "Swing ARChitect."

Oh my lord, people are going to wig out at that. They'll think they're going for a wheel alignment rather than a golf lesson.

You know your stuff so well, you're too deep in your nomenclature. What does Kostis say about the ball flight laws?