Ball Placement - Forward vs. Variable?

[iacas]

That is an illusion also

No, it's not. Video, images, force plate data... motion capture data... it all confirms it's not an illusion.

because if his head doesn't move then his hips are rotating around his center of gravity or his spine unless he has a rubber spine.

Your spine can do a lot of things - tilt, extend, flex, etc.

Sliding the hips forward puts in what we would call "secondary axis tilt." It's the tilting to the right. Can you, when standing with a little flex to your knees and a little flex from your hips, bump your hip against a wall a few inches to your left while keeping your head still? Yes. The downward move is only slightly different than that (the hips open as they push forward). The hips slide: Here's more:

For your center of gravity to move everything on that axis must move proportionally.

Incorrect. Or you just aren't sure what you're talking about...

Yes, your center of gravity moves. It moves from being fairly well centered (slightly to the right, if measured) to well forward - several inches forward of the top of the backswing. I don't know why you keep saying things like "proportionally." So long as your CG remains within your feet you can stay balanced and not fall over. The CG in a Stack and Tilt golf swing moves from fairly well centered at address, back a little (away from the target, "right") on the backswing, and then quite a ways forward (towards the target, or "left") on the downswing.

It amazes me how when someone is spreading misinformation that the one who calls him/her on it is the bad guy.

Zeph isn't spreading "misinformation." He has eyes and can observe.

Tiger also mentions in his book that he uses his sternum to monitor the center of his swing also.

It's a reference point. It doesn't mean it's actually the center of his swing. Tiger says a lot of things - like how he feels like he takes his putter straight back and straight through - that aren't reality. Feel isn't real - we know this. Which is why we're using pictures and images and video and weight data and so on to discuss things.

Here's an illustration. There's a blue rod rod attached to a pivot point denoted by the blue circle. Where will the rod reach its lowest point? At A, B, C, or D? Naturally you're going to say C. It's the lowest point because it's vertically oriented under the point of rotation. D'oh! You'll note Charlie's ball position is not in the center of his stance, and the low point is going to be four inches or so further in front of the ball. Have a good weekend.

[bigoak]

This is too complicated. I play the driver and woods off the left nut and the irons off the right nut. Every guy knows where his nuts are.

[iacas]

RtoL, since you're obsessed with Shawn Clement's one video (in which he wrongly asserts that the low point is at the sternum...), and you quoted my entire post only to tell someone to look up a video you could just embed in the forum, here, just for you, is Shawn's low point illustrated by Shawn himself. He contradicts himself, but at least gets his proper low point:



Pros play the driver forward and yet their average angle of attack is negative - the low point is in front of the golf ball, even teed up well forward in their stance.

[Righty to Lefty]

Yeah if you noticed in the video the second ball that he hit was simulating a 3 wood swing which is why it is teed so low and he mentioned that right before he picked up that club (there is another ball in your freeze frame that hasn't been hit yet and that is the driver swing) and I noticed that you lil red line is quite a bit off because if you were to put it were is should be which would be just in front if the clubface where the strike of the ball happens and draw a line straight up from that you'll see that it is somehow right in line with is sternum so thanks for proving my point for me. Oh and Tiger is the exception and not the rule to the statement that pros hit down on there drivers and he even admits that it costs him yardage but said that he was willing to sacrifice it even though it increased his spinrates bigtime.

[jamo]

Oh and Tiger is the exception and not the rule to the statement that pros hit down on there drivers and he even admits that it costs him yardage but said that he was willing to sacrifice it even though it increased his spinrates bigtime.

Nope. PGA TOUR average angle of attack is -1.3* with the driver.

[Righty to Lefty]

RtoL, since you're obsessed with Shawn Clement's one video (in which he wrongly asserts that the low point is at the sternum...), and you quoted my entire post only to tell someone to look up a video you could just embed in the forum, here, just for you, is Shawn's low point illustrated by Shawn himself. He contradicts himself, but at least gets his proper low point:

Please tell me that someone out there can see that his lil red line coming off of Shawn's left shoulder is almost a full golfball in front of the reall golf ball being hit or am I just lookin at it wrong cause I see a big gap between the ball and the line he drew in there.

[jamo]

Please tell me that someone out there can see that his lil red line coming off of Shawn's left shoulder is almost a full golfball in front of the reall golf ball being hit or am I just lookin at it wrong cause I see a big gap between the ball and the line he drew in there.

That's illustrating the low point, not the point of contact. It's showing how he is hitting down on the ball.

[iacas]

Yeah if you noticed in the video the second ball that he hit was simulating a 3 wood swing which is why it is teed so low and he mentioned that right before he picked up that club (there is another ball in your freeze frame that hasn't been hit yet and that is the driver swing) and I noticed that you lil red line is quite a bit off because if you were to put it were is should be which would be just in front if the clubface where the strike of the ball happens and draw a line straight up from that you'll see that it is somehow right in line with is sternum so thanks for proving my point for me.

That's one long sentence!

This freeze frame is from his first demonstration with an iron, not a 3W. The red line is not "quite a bit off" - it's where Shawn says his low point is - well in front of the golf ball. I've drawn it properly in this image - he strikes the ball and then the club continues forward to the low point. I've done the opposite of "proving your point" for you. Oh, and your sternum? It's about four to six inches from your left armpit...

Oh and Tiger is the exception and not the rule to the statement that pros hit down on there drivers and he even admits that it costs him yardage but said that he was willing to sacrifice it even though it increased his spinrates bigtime.

The PGA Tour average is a negative angle of attack with the driver. And, again, they play their drivers well forward.

Please tell me that someone out there can see that his lil red line coming off of Shawn's left shoulder is almost a full golfball in front of the reall golf ball being hit or am I just lookin at it wrong cause I see a big gap between the ball and the line he drew in there.

Yes, we can see that. Shawn is demonstrating that his clubhead continues on downward after hitting the ball (the farthest of the three left - again this is his iron swing) and that his LOW POINT occurs somewhere around where I've drawn the line.

The low point is well in front of the golf ball. Four to six inches... Gee, where have those numbers shown up before...? Look - if the low point was at the golf ball, then nobody would ever take a divot. The low point is the middle to forward portion of the divot, and pro's divots are taken towards their left foot (or even in front of it), not back in the middle of their stance.

[MJP]

Honestly RtoL, quit while your somewhat behind. You don't want this to get worse. Iacas has over 16,000 posts, basically runs the entire site (with a help of others im sure but still), oh yeah, and is a golf instructor and likely will become a Class A soon. He's only trying to help you.

I've been wrong multiple times on this forum myself, but I didn't continue to insist physical evidence was merely an illusion to my eyes.

[pup]

This is too complicated. I play the driver and woods off the left nut and the irons off the right nut. Every guy knows where his nuts are.

Heh heh, nice!

[kennay92]

Yeah if you noticed in the video the second ball that he hit was simulating a 3 wood swing which is why it is teed so low and he mentioned that right before he picked up that club (there is another ball in your freeze frame that hasn't been hit yet and that is the driver swing) and I noticed that you lil red line is quite a bit off because

i laugh at your ignorance, where the strike happens is NOT where the low point is.

[PiustheDrGolf]

Well.. I knew this thread gonna fight to approve which one is right or wrong. I was just curious if putting ball forward for short irons may add another variable or not. Since placing ball forward promotes hip slide which creates lag to get there, it will have more stronger impact than back ball position. But do I want that for short irons/wedges? I believe golf is game of eliminating variables. So I am looking for an answer that putting ball forward is not ADDING Variables. and please educate me with why it isn't. Iacas?

[crayputter]

VERY interesting thread, this....

I place my ball about 2 balls to the right of my left toe....for ALL clubs in my bag...

Only for the driver and long irons, I widen my stance just a touch, and that's it.

I've tried placing the ball in the middle, off the middle, etc...of my stance, but it just doesn't work for me like how I'm placing my ball now...

So is this working only for ME ? Or am I doing this wrong ? Does this vary by each individual and their different swings ?


P.S I am 5ft 8' by the way...not the tallest dude out there, I know....:)
Ray

[iacas]

Honestly RtoL, quit while your somewhat behind. You don't want this to get worse. Iacas has over 16,000 posts, basically runs the entire site (with a help of others im sure but still), oh yeah, and is a golf instructor and likely will become a Class A soon. He's only trying to help you.

Hey, make no mistake about it - I'm happy to be proven wrong. But thus far all the counter-arguments seem to be a misinterpreted Shawn Clement video and some weird statements about illusions and how the body must move proportionally.

The low points of the best players' is far, far closer to their left toes than the center of their stance. That much is a fact... If I've somehow misunderstood what RtoL is saying, I'd like to be corrected. If I've proven my case to RtoL, I'd like him to acknowledge it. My credentials don't tend to mean much except perhaps to speak to the fact that I have dedicated a fair amount of time to studying this stuff. But a lot of time spent doing something doesn't mean I do it best, correctly, or that I can explain things well. I welcome corrections, discussion, and the chances they provide to improve my understanding and communication.

I was just curious if putting ball forward for short irons may add another variable or not. Since placing ball forward promotes hip slide which creates lag to get there, it will have more stronger impact than back ball position. But do I want that for short irons/wedges? I believe golf is game of eliminating variables. So I am looking for an answer that putting ball forward is not ADDING Variables. and please educate me with why it isn't. Iacas?

It's different for different people. I tend to have a progressive ball position myself, even if my stance stays roughly the same width (I'm sure it's slightly wider with the driver, but not a bunch). Just forward of center for a wedge (I don't need to go forward a ton on a wedge), and somewhere around half a ball forward per club from the wedge on up to the driver, just off the left instep or heel or toe (stock, bigger draw, straight or fade).

I place my ball about 2 balls to the right of my left toe....for ALL clubs in my bag...

That's what Jack Nicklaus says he did, and he'd vary his stance width, making the "effective" ball position somewhat different.

Ball position is a somewhat personal thing. Use what works for you... but don't go anywhere back of center for a stock shot. That's asking for trouble.

[hero12]

I think it depends more on the shot at hand rather than anything else. If I am playing a long iron shot from the fairway into a green, I will play middle or a little in front of mid. If I am playing a wedge to an easy pin position, I will play it back of middle for a one hop stop. Punch shots are back of middle etc. For me a preferred shot is middle for all irons, but my situation dictates my ball position because that is the easiest variable for me to change.