Arjun Atwal

[james joule]

Ummmmmm.. Tiger? Vijay? must I go on?

Ummmm, can you go on? The list kind of peters out after that, don't you agree? I think the original point is valid.

I've always liked Arjun for some reason. (Maybe because he was a cheap birdie machine guy for ESPN's original bestball game several years ago.) I was definitely perplexed by his 2nd shot on 18, but nailing that 7 footer for the victory showed balls. I also liked Toms' quote right after McCarron left himself a 7.5' putt directly behind Arjun's ball: "He must have paid him."

[Clambake]

Who gives a crap what

While I fully concur with your second sentence - it's right on and everyone should feel that way. But I disagree with the first sentence about "who cares?".

I personally DO care in that I deeply wish for greater diversity in all parts of our society and I do not like it when I see things out of balance as it is with the current Tour. I care that we have not made as much progress as hoped, as it appears there are really no more people of color on Tour today that there were 25 years ago. It took people who cared in the 60's to change our prehistoric civil rights in the US. Sadly, we will probably always need people who do care (in the right way) what color players, other sportsmen and women, or any other profession to overcome those that also care (but in the wrong way). We ALL need to care in order to counter prejudice and bigotry. And congrats to Atwal.....his persistence, focus, humility, and generally "nice guy" persona are deserved of a little Tour winner recognition.

[senorchipotle]

Ummmm, can you go on?

lmao at that one. seriously though, i would rather see the best players in the world than the best players of each ethnicity. but that's just me..

[Harmonious]

I personally DO care in that I deeply wish for greater diversity in all parts of our society and I do not like it when I see things out of balance as it is with the current Tour. I care that we have not made as much progress as hoped, as it appears there are really no more people of color on Tour today that there were 25 years ago. It took people who cared in the 60's to change our prehistoric civil rights in the US. Sadly, we will probably always need people who do care (in the right way) what color players, other sportsmen and women, or any other profession to overcome those that also care (but in the wrong way). We ALL need to care in order to counter prejudice and bigotry.

What exactly are you saying here? That you "care" more than everyone else? Are you saying we need a quota of minorities for each tournament? You want to regulate who gets into tournaments, say, by setting aside a certain number of places for persons of color? Golf is one of those sports where an individual success depends "not by the color of his skin" but by the number on his scorecard. Personally, I like to watch the best players in the world, regardless of color.

[sean_miller]

What exactly are you saying here? That you "care" more than everyone else? Are you saying we need a quota of minorities for each tournament? You want to regulate who gets into tournaments, say, by setting aside a certain number of places for persons of color? Golf is one of those sports where an individual success depends "not by the color of his skin" but by the number on his scorecard. Personally, I like to watch the best players in the world, regardless of color.

So, which sports out there have skin colour as a scoring criteria?

I didn't read his post in detail, but diversity is good. If only one or two segments of the population are interested in your sport that doesn't say much about the long term viability of the sport. When there are more people not play or caring about golf every year, how is that a good thing?

[zeg]

What exactly are you saying here? That you "care" more than everyone else? Are you saying we need a quota of minorities for each tournament? You want to regulate who gets into tournaments, say, by setting aside a certain number of places for persons of color? Golf is one of those sports where an individual success depends "not by the color of his skin" but by the number on his scorecard. Personally, I like to watch the best players in the world, regardless of color.

You're misunderstanding him. There's no racism in saying that you'd like to see diversity in the best players in the world, and it's pretty far from calling for quotas.

If you believe that people of all colors (or whatever other traits you deem important) are capable of equal performance, then they ought to be reflected at the highest levels in proportion to their populations. If that doesn't happen, it is a sign that there's a selection effect: something either giving an advantage to those who are overrepresented or hindering those who are underrepresented. It's not a stretch in the least to say that golf has a history of being more available to certain segments of society than others, and certainly that's been reflected in the demographics of its elite players. So, no, it's not that it should be easier for certain races or colors to succeed, but it would be a nice sign that the availability is becoming more even if the demographics of the elite better match the general population. I'd like to see a more colorful tour, simply because that means that people of all races and backgrounds are being exposed to the game, and I think that's a good thing. I do not believe for a moment that the people in the world with the best capability to play great golf are reflected by the racial makeup of the current tour players. If golf were drawing from a broader population, we'd have *better* golf, simply because it was finding the best talent, not simply the best talent who happened to be exposed to golf. (apologies to Clambake if it seems like I'm trying to answer for him, I'm not, and he may obviously feel differently on some/all of the above)

[Clambake]

What exactly are you saying here? That you "care" more than everyone else? Are you saying we need a quota of minorities for each tournament? You want to regulate who gets into tournaments, say, by setting aside a certain number of places for persons of color? Golf is one of those sports where an individual success depends "not by the color of his skin" but by the number on his scorecard. Personally, I like to watch the best players in the world, regardless of color.

Wow, where do you get such drabble from my comment? Quotas? Regulations and setting aside places? That's so far away from anything I said it barely warrants further comment.

[senorchipotle]

While I fully concur with your second sentence - it's right on and everyone should feel that way. But I disagree with the first sentence about "who cares?".

what about baseball? will you put a cap on dominicans, puerto ricans, etc.? and basketball and football, are you going to limit the number of blacks who can be on the court at the same time? how about nascar? pretty much all rednecks there, how do you plan to diversify that?

[max power]

what about baseball? will you put a cap on dominicans, puerto ricans, etc.? and basketball and football, are you going to limit the number of blacks who can be on the court at the same time? how about nascar? pretty much all rednecks there, how do you plan to diversify that?

He said absolutely

nothing about putting caps on anyone. As far as I understand, his argument that he wants to see greater diversity is a wish that more people of diverse cultures/backgrounds would have access/enthusiasm for the game in the first place. Nothing wrong with that.

[jamo]

While I fully concur with your second sentence - it's right on and everyone should feel that way. But I disagree with the first sentence about "who cares?".

See, I don't really care about diversity, or lack thereof, in sports. Does a black scratch golfer have a harder way to the PGA TOUR than a white scratch golfer, given that they are from identical backgrounds? Same with baseball. Does a 6"9' white basketball player have a harder road to the NBA than a 6"9' black player, again given the same backgrounds? You can ask the same question with football. In my opinion, the answer to all of those is no.

[Harmonious]

OK, here goes. So many have jumped on my case without understanding what I was saying.

Mr. Clambake, you would like to see more diversity on the PGA Tour. That is fine, I don't disagree that bringing in more people to golf is a good thing. But here is the reality: Many, many kids (of all colors) do not have access to golf courses or golf teachers. Perhaps their parents have no interest in golf, or they cannot afford to make golf available for them. Perhaps they live in a big city with no way to get to a course, or they live so remotely that finding a course is out of the question. The First Tee has done a good job in filling the gap somewhat, but it is impossible to reach out to all children who may have the interest or talent for the game. There will always be a large number of kids who will not take up the game, just like there are potentially great downhill skiers who will never get on skis because they live in Florida, or potentially great musicians who will never play music because their parents thought it was a waste of time.

The erroneous part of your reasoning is that, regardless of the underlying circumstances, you would like the Tour to reflect the racial makeup of the US. That just isn't going to happen for some of the reasons I mention above. It's not because "uncaring" people are trying to prevent it. Rather than wring your hands over the lack of diversity, maybe the best approach is to do something about it. You live in San Diego; I bet there are lots of Mexican-American, Asian-American and African-American kids ( and maybe a white kid or two) who would love to have you teach them golf. Volunteer at your local school district or at your local youth golf association (I have). That's how you create more diversity, my friend.

End of drabble (whatever that is).

[zeg]

Good post, Harmonious, but none of that makes it in any way unreasonable to be happy to see more diversity at the top. It can only help since, for example, a lack of players who kids can identify with is discouraging. Diversity begets diversity.

[Clambake]

I'm amazed that such a simple statement that says I and others should still care about creating diversity can create such bizarre responses. Caps, quotas....no said a single thing about that. You've misread and misquoted almost beyond any rational belief.

That is fine, I don't disagree that bringing in more people to golf is a good thing.....Rather than wring your hands over the lack of diversity, maybe the best approach is to do something about it. You live in San Diego; I bet there are lots of Mexican-American, Asian-American and African-American kids ( and maybe a white kid or two) who would love to have you teach them golf. Volunteer at your local school district or at your local youth golf association (I have). That's how you create more diversity, my friend.

I'm glad you think diversity is also good. But I'm not wringing my hands over it, and don't lecture me on how to help. I volunteer over 200 hours a year in support of an organization to get kids interested in science and engineering careers, with my focus on supporting underprivileged high schools. I also donate about $7k a year to that same organization, and I've directly arranged or help arrange for local companies, including my own, to also provide over $250k in support as well. This year I donated over $2k in US Open tickets to the First Tee organization so that disadvantaged youths could attend Pebble in person. And I've donated clubs and other golf merchandise to locally to also help get kids into golf. I'm not expressing the above to toot my own horn but simply to show a depth of commitment to a good cause. Oh, and I know it's making a difference.

Good post, Harmonious, but none of that makes it in any way unreasonable to be happy to see more diversity at the top. It can only help since, for example, a lack of players who kids can identify with is discouraging. Diversity begets diversity.

Excellent - thanks

He said absolutely

Exactly.

what about baseball? will you put a cap on dominicans, puerto ricans, etc.? and basketball and football, are you going to limit the number of blacks who can be on the court at the same time? how about nascar? pretty much all rednecks there, how do you plan to diversify that?

What a bunch of rubbish. Again, point out one thing where anyone said anything about caps, limits, or anything.

[senorchipotle]

What a bunch of rubbish. Again, point out one thing where anyone said anything about caps, limits, or anything.

ok, apologies for reading too much into your observation. it is quite commendable that you care about diversity. however, i don't think that direct intervention specifically targeting minorities helps anything, in fact i submit that it makes things worse. i am all about leveling the playing field through organizations such as ''first tee,'' ''tiger woods foundation,'' etc. as a black american, there is a stigma that goes along with playing ''white'' sports, i.e. golf, tennis, and soccer that greatly limits would be golfers from the black community. here in dallas, there is a whole community of black golfers which opened my eyes cause growing up in a smaller town, i was pretty much the only black kid at my country club. i am of the opinion that it takes an example, such as tiger woods, atwal, singh, etc., to get more people of color out on the golf course. but for that to change, the respective communities must change, and that is no small feat.

[Clambake]

ok, apologies for reading too much into your observation. it is quite commendable that you care about diversity. however, i don't think that direct intervention specifically targeting minorities helps anything, in fact i submit that it makes things worse. i am all about leveling the playing field through organizations such as ''first tee,'' ''tiger woods foundation,'' etc. as a black american, there is a stigma that goes along with playing ''white'' sports, i.e. golf, tennis, and soccer that greatly limits would be golfers from the black community. here in dallas, there is a whole community of black golfers which opened my eyes cause growing up in a smaller town, i was pretty much the only black kid at my country club. i am of the opinion that it takes an example, such as tiger woods, atwal, singh, etc., to get more people of color out on the golf course. but for that to change, the respective communities must change, and that is no small feat.

Peace. I fully concur with your comment about stigmas associated with different sports, and to help break those down we need more people like Atwal to simply provide observable examples. It is sad that different sports have their own unique persona and that there is an expectation that its players must discard their own culture and adopt the persona of the sport.

I get where you're coming from in your comment that directly targeting minorities can hurt rather than help. However, I feel that for each example one can find that this is detrimental, there are many more positive examples to the contrary. I don't care as much for programs that are solely targeting one disadvantaged demographic (although they still have their place), but I'm extremely passionate for those programs that are open for all but ultimately have the greatest impact on those who are disadvantaged. The main group I work with, FIRST Robotics, exposes all kids to engineering and science, but I could go on for hours with amazing stories of how FIRST has helped open endless opportunities for those who wouldn't otherwise be exposed or inclined towards careers in technology including girls, inner city youths, and economically-depressed neighborhoods. In frequent public speaking about this program, I share a few stories that never fail to bring a tear to all in the audience. The whole area of equality in sports or any other part of our society has been, continues, and probably will always be the most complex and difficult problem for our society to address. You were right on in your last sentence that the respective communities must change and that would be no small feat. It requires positive examples (like Atwal), access and opportunity (possibly the biggest obstacle for increasing diversity in golf), passionate people who care to knock away the obstacles, and a willingness by all to reject archaic stereotypes. Someday, perhaps, this whole conversation will be unnecessary.

[colin007]

Does a black scratch golfer have a harder way to the PGA TOUR than a white scratch golfer, given that they are from identical backgrounds? Same with baseball. Does a 6"9' white basketball player have a harder road to the NBA than a 6"9' black player, again given the same backgrounds?

yes and yes. IMHO.

[senorchipotle]

yes and yes. IMHO.

have you ever been a black pga calibre golfer?

[colin007]

have you ever been a black pga calibre golfer?

um wat? i was saying that i think its harder for blacks to get into the game. wheres the confusion?