NFL Diminishing Fundamentals?

[mcgriff]

I played a bit and I am assistant coach on my son's team. What is going on with the NFL? It's almost like the NBA where you throw the fundamentals out the window. Why would Harrison not let the Brown's receiver catch the ball then bury him? 2 minutes left in the half. Clock would have kept running as the Browns approached midfield and gained a couple yards. Sounds fine to me.

We don't teach the boys to tackle with the top of their helmet either. Where is Harrison getting this crap about being taught how to play football? Whatever systems he claims taught him how to play must have rose colored skies because I know of no tackling move that requires the tackler to drop his head and ram into the ball carrier. Once you lose sight of what you need to hit on the ball carrier, you are out of the play. Move like this gets you one shot. You miss, guy gets a TD. Wrap the guy up and get the whistle. Showboat after the game for the ladies.

Reading his comments, I am surprised no one has called him to the mat. I guess I have never been a big fan of these blow up hits. They've been around as long as I remember and at times you do have to blow a guy up. But, do it within the rules and with the pads in the gut. Put the guy down with the wind knocked out of him. He'll hobble off the field and think twice when he sees your numbers.

Pretty sure these guys that are spearing will get theirs. They are all a chop block away from IR. Not sure a guy like Harrison understands this. I pick on him because he is the only offender out there that hasn't manned up and admitted to his mistakes.

For anyone that thinks I am for a watered down NFL, no way. Our kids grow up watching these games and they need to learn the right way to play the game. What I have seen over the past 5-10 years on Def is NOT good fundamental football.

[jamo]

IMO the one thing that causes all of the "head to head" and "defenseless receiver" hits is the helmet. I played rugby for a few years, and that's a sport that is not only rougher than football, but you wear no pads. And because you don't wear a helmet or shoulder pads you can't simply run full speed into a receiver coming onto you and "lower the boom" on him. In rugby you HAVE to tackle, simple as that. In football you don't, but there is not way to change that. You can't get rid of helmets, because then you would have to get rid of all pads otherwise you risk head injury. And there is no way the NFL gets rid of pads. Changing the rules hasn't done anything either because football guys seem to think that the big hit is everything, when that's not so in rugby.

Harrison and Ray Lewis can talk about how "big hits are the sport and you just have to go with it" all they want, but one of these days someone will get killed taking a hit out there. It will happen.

It's not like I being biased here either. The player who got fined the most this week was Meriweather from the Pats, my favorite team. He's a fool for what he did too.

[bwdial]

It's too bad Barry Sanders isn't still around to make James Harrison look like an even bigger fool. Put your head down to tackle Sanders and you wound up on your face with arms full of nothing.

[iacas]

I think the fact that James didn't get any penalties for those hits is indicative of the fact that the refs didn't feel it was a move worth penalizing.

[sc13ntific]

In neither case was the Harrison hits intentional, unlike the Merriweather on Heap hit. In the case of Cribbs he was held up by the first tacker and Harrisons momentum carried him through. That was 1/10 of a second away from being a beautiful tackle. In the Massaquia (sp) hit the receiver went down fumbling the ball, Harrison was already in his tackling position and again his momentum carried him through. In neither case was he leading with his head, thats why no penalty was given. I have no problem with him sayng his intention is to hurt the player he is tackling. Football HURTS, wether you are on the giving or receiving side of a tackle. HE clearly stated that his intention is not to INJURE. If people cannot make the distinction they should not be watching football. When I played football (elem, HS, College) my intention was to hit the other player as hard as I could, within the rules, to inflict as much damage as possible, regardless of if I was on defense or offense.

There are cases when having your head as a tackler orientated to the middle of the offensive player is warrented. As long as you keep your neck bulled you cannot suffer any injury from doing that. There are many different ways to tackle that a good defensive player uses in different situations. If you are dealing with a RB who can juke you having your head oriented at his bellybutton gives you a better chance of making the tackle. The number one things to teach as far as form tackling is concerned is keeping your neck in a bulled position, wrap your arms and explode using your hips and back through the offensive player.

Football has to be played at full speed. If they ask these defensive player to try and slowdown and assess every motion you will see WAY more player being injured on the defensive side.

[BostonSully]

Football has to be played at full speed. If they ask these defensive player to try and slowdown and assess every motion you will see WAY more player being injured on the defensive side.

Any of you play FootBall at a decent level?? I played HS Linebacker/Noseguard. When your playing the line backer position you line up your hit and throw it, you dont have time to worry ok I cant let my head hit him or itll be a no-no. The Dumbyweather hit was bad but he's a classless player alot of these other hits IMO were not that bad.

You cant start throwing all these restrictions on the Defensive players otherwise the D are going to become largely in-effective. It would be a huge change in the way the game is played. + Big Hits are awesome (not that I like to see people get concussions) But like TB Said "its part of the game, you know that when you sign up. I've had 4 surgeries myself its part of the contract"

[newtogolf]

I played linebacker for 10 years, including 4 in H.S. and 2 in college. You're taught from an early age that you hit the guy hard so he loses heart and doesn't want to touch the ball. When I played we weren't as fast, or strong as these guys, but we popped the ball carrier as hard as we could. It was the game inside the game, my job was to pound the guy to get into his head, and his job was to pop back up and show me I couldn't hurt him.

These guys were groomed to do what they do by parents, past coaches, the NCAA, and the NFL. They represent the strongest, fastest, hardest hitting guys in the world. After decades of NFL films featuring the hardest hitters in the game, they want to call a time out. Now before a defenseman hits someone they have to make sure it's not too high, and not too low, or they risk fine and suspension. I agree with Harrison, it's not realistic. You can't anticipate in mid flight if the receiver is going to tuck or lower his body causing a helmet to helmet.

Harrison was an idiot for stating in public the way he and most defensive players were taught to play the game. No one wants to hear the truth, that we are taught to hurt but not injure. This move by the NFL is cologne on body odor, it's a cowards move to appease public opinion but won't really fix anything. As Jamo said, you want to cut down on the hitting and injuries, lose the pads and the helmets. It would also help if they intevene with the way coaches teach these kids to play at the lower levels.

[jamo]

In neither case was the Harrison hits intentional, unlike the Merriweather on Heap hit.

What was unintentional? Laying down a big hit? He did the same thing as Merriweather. Watch a video of Harrison on Cribbs or Massaquoi. Do you think that what Harrison did both times couldn't have been done with an arm tackle? They both had one intention, which was to lay a big hit on the offensive player, and they were both stupid plays. Just like the Ryan Clark hit on Wes Welker last year (forgive me for using more Pats/Steelers examples, it's just one that I remember).

Welker never even touched the ball, and he had already slowed down his running. Clark's head was down, which meant that there was no way he could know if Welker even caught the ball. Whether or not they are "dirty" plays (as in against the rules) doesn't really matter to me, they are stupid plays and the NFL should find a way to get them out of the sport. Find me a reason that those are good for the sport and I'll back down. But until then, I'm sorry, all 4 plays that I mentioned are stupid.

[max power]

I think the fact that James didn't get any penalties for those hits is indicative of the fact that the refs didn't feel it was a move worth penalizing.

Yeah, but the rule is actually on the books. NFL hasn't made it a priority for the refs to enforce the rule. And if Harrison can't play without leading with his helmet than he's far less skilled than I took him for.

[sc13ntific]

What was unintentional? Laying down a big hit? He did the same thing as Merriweather. Watch a video of Harrison on Cribbs or Massaquoi. Do you think that what Harrison did both times couldn't have been done with an arm tackle? They both had one intention, which was to lay a big hit on the offensive player, and they were both stupid plays. Just like the Ryan Clark hit on Wes Welker last year (forgive me for using more Pats/Steelers examples, it's just one that I remember).

In the Merriweather hit you can clearly see him cock his head back and deliver a blow with his helmet. The Clark on Welker hit was in the same vein. Both were dirty. The Harrison hits were not like either of those though. Welker and Heap were not going to catch the ball, Massaquai was in the process of catching the ball.

Arm Tackle = Missed Tackle

[jamo]

In the Merriweather hit you can clearly see him cock his head back and deliver a blow with his helmet. The Clark on Welker hit was in the same vein. Both were dirty. The Harrison hits were not like either of those though. Welker and Heap were not going to catch the ball, Massaquai was in the process of catching the ball.

How are they not alike? They all were trying to dislodge the football from an intended receiver (or, in the case of Cribbs, a ball-carrier). Because they all had there heads down whether or not the receiver caught the football was basically chance.

Arm Tackle = Missed Tackle

For a professional NFL player I find it sad if that's the case.

[BostonSully]

How are they not alike? They all were trying to dislodge the football from an intended receiver (or, in the case of Cribbs, a ball-carrier). Because they all had there heads down whether or not the receiver caught the football was basically chance.

Did you play HS football Jamo? Because thats true an arm tackle is a baby tackle or so I was taught. Body to body is what you aim for its not your fault if the player drops down and it becomes head to head.

Meriweather dropped his helmet down and lunged forward targeting the head, bad. Others were coming through to play the body and head contact resulted not as bad. The NFL would become the NFFL if we had a bunch of sissys running around throwing "arm tackles".

[jamo]

Did you play HS football Jamo? Because thats true an arm tackle is a baby tackle or so I was taught. Body to body is what you aim for its not your fault if the player drops down and it becomes head to head.

No I didn't play football, like I said earlier I played rugby. Rugby is a sport based mostly around arm tackles. Try watching a game of rugby and tell me it's a "sissy sport".

I don't disagree that body to body is fine, but there needs to be two heads to make it a head to head tackle. By that I mean if the ball carrier drops his head, you can still tackle them with your body. But you can't tell me Harrison into Cribbs or Clark into Welker were going for a body tackle. It's just not true.

[bwdial]

No I didn't play football, like I said earlier I played rugby. Rugby is a sport based mostly around arm tackles. Try watching a game of rugby and tell me it's a "sissy sport".

Any sport where someone has to tape their ears to their head to prevent having them ripped off cannot be considered a "sissy" sport.

By "arm tackle", I assume you mean "wrapping up". I was playing football before a lot of you were probably born (late 1970s) and the fundamentals of good tackling were (and still are) : - keep your head up... eyes on the ball carrier's belt buckle. - stay on your feet... do not launch yourself at the ball carrier. - wrap up... don't let the ball carrier bounce off of you. I think a big reason that YAC (yards after contact) has become such a big deal, is because so few defensive players are fundamentally sound when it comes to tackling. They all want to get their name mentioned on "Jacked Up", and more often than not, they wind up on "Come On Man". Watch film of guys like Bednarik, Butkus and Nietzche. I guarantee you they hit every bit as hard as any of these jokers in the NFL today, but what they didn't do was whiff on a tackle and give up extra yards... or worse. You can "hurt" a guy plenty by wrapping up and driving him to the ground with a fundamentally sound tackle.

[sc13ntific]

No I didn't play football, like I said earlier I played rugby. Rugby is a sport based mostly around arm tackles. Try watching a game of rugby and tell me it's a "sissy sport".

You can't compare Rugby to Football. Both are different types of games played at different levels of exertion. Rugby is closer to soccer in that the plays develop organically and the action is close to constant. There are also very few open field runs as most of the time the action is rather centered around the ball, when the ball carrier is tackled it is usually in a closed space. Football is all set plays and moving players through open spaces, esp on offense. The tackles can occur in a closed space or out in the open. Therefore the hits are more violent. You can tackle a rugby player using your arms as it is ssually a tackle that occurs in a swarm of player and the runner is generally more upright when running. Football runningbacks/receivers run in a more crouched down position and usually have more space to maneuver. If you try to arm tackle a running back he will either bounce of or throw a quick juke so that you end up tackling air.

There is no known way to form tackle a person where your head isn't in the lead. It sits on the top of your body, therefore it naturally is the first thing to make contact on most tackles. This is why the most important thing is to keep you neck in a bulled position, this compresses the vertebrae and keeps you from getting injured. Players get paralyzed when there neck is facing down on a hit because there vertebrae are not compressed. Harrison was not atempting to spear Cribbs or Massaquai, he did not throw his head at either player. His force carried his head through either player, he did not (like Merriweather) cock his head back and throw it into the offensive player. If Harrison would have attempted to slow himself up on the Massaquai hit chances are he would have ended up just as hurt or or more hurt than Massaquai. Has Harrison done some questionable things on the field, of course he has (the Todd Heap check on a spiked ball), but this weekend he did not. Defensive players are already at a distinct dissadvantage. The offense knows where they are going and when they intend to go there. To ask a defensive player to try to judge just how hard he needs to hit is ludicrous.

[newtogolf]

Ideally, you want to hit the guy right in the chest with your helmet or shoulder pads. You want to launch, relax your body and exhale for maximum impact. The problem with this is if you launch while the guy is in the air, and he descends, your going to hit him in the head. Another problem is trying to tackle a running back, you launch at this chest, he sees you flying towards him and he lowers his center of gravity and head to absorb the hit, and now it's helmet to helmet.

The NFL has to be careful, because while concussions are serious, the head and shoulders are at least protected. If defenders start aiming for the mid-section (unprotected) you're going to see alot of busted ribs, ruptured spleens, liver damage and internal bleeding, ask Chris Simms from the Bucs.

[newtogolf]

By "arm tackle", I assume you mean "wrapping up". I was playing football before a lot of you were probably born (late 1970s) and the fundamentals of good tackling were (and still are) :

That's how I was taught to tackle in pee wee football. In H.S. they taught you to launch and wrap. In our days, running backs and WR's weren't as big as they are now. If you try to wrestle a guy like Brandon Jacobs, TO, or Hillis to the ground with an arm tackle you're going to get stiff armed and bulldozed. NFL rules don't even allow you to tackle a QB around the legs, so these guys are running out of places to hit the guy with the ball.

[bwdial]

That's how I was taught to tackle in pee wee football. In H.S. they taught you to launch and wrap. In our days, running backs and WR's weren't as big as they are now. If you try to wrestle a guy like Brandon Jacobs, TO, or Hillis to the ground with an arm tackle you're going to get stiff armed and bulldozed. NFL rules don't even allow you to tackle a QB around the legs, so these guys are running out of places to hit the guy with the ball.

When I say "launch", I mean like Ryan Clark going completely airborne. Surely to God they aren't teaching that "technique". My coaches in high school called it "firing" into, or through the ball carrier, but they never wanted us airborne because you lose all leverage.