Outside in swing path & golf magazine 10/10

[Old1964]

So, I'm sitting at the doctor's office and run across an article on page 102 that stuns me , but makes sense. They conclude the article by telling golfers to groove two different swings: one for the driver and one for irons, but the swing path is key!

Based on Trackman research they reported that a 2 degree outside-in swing path was ideal for irons, while a 5 degree inside-out swing path was ideal for the driver . Has anyone else ever seen this? (Forgive me if there was an old post on this!)

I tend to have a little outside-in swing path and know that this works for my irons, especially my wedges. They talk about the common experience of either crushing the irons or nailing the driver, but not doing both on the same day.

What do you think about this?

[JackLee]

Sounds reasonable. I guess we should start practicing.

[JackLee]

On second thought, with my limited practice time, I think I will just keep swinging inside-out with both long and short clubs.

[halcon]

Two swings??? I can barely "kind of" hit one! Maybe that is the ideal path (I doubt it, but maybe), but it sounds impractical and adds complication to an already complicated game.

[Shanks A Million]

So, I'm sitting at the doctor's office and run across an article on page 102 that

Uh, no. Absolutely not. I swing about 6° inside out on every swing (too much, I know). I hit the ball about the same with every club. I recently went to the Children's Miracle Network Classic, and had the chance to see many of the worlds best on the range, and up close. I came out with this: My trajectory is about the same as the average tour pro on a good strike (which just made me smile!); short clubs I hit a high ball that lands fairly soft and spins back, long irons take off low, climb, and fall with minimal roll. Woods, however, tend to fly lower than tour pros hit it, and it takes a fairly good strike to get a good high one. Driver is similar again to the tour pros (on a good strike of course).

Where I differ is, of course, obviously the consistency and the curve. My ball hooks as much as one of the tour's "hookers". Justin Leonard's driver hooks less than mine often. I also can't control myself to swing easy. Tour pros look as if they're barely swinging. They hit shot after shot right in the same spot. They repeat their swing effortlessly, with any club. They are the best in the world because they have one amazing swing that works well for any club. The rest of us should take that as an example.

[sean_miller]

Uh, no. Absolutely not. I swing about 6° inside out on every swing (too much, I know). I hit the ball about the same with every club. I recently went to the Children's Miracle Network Classic, and had the chance to see many of the worlds best on the range, and up close. I came out with this: My trajectory is about the same as the average tour pro on a good strike (which just made me smile!); short clubs I hit a high ball that lands fairly soft and spins back, long irons take off low, climb, and fall with minimal roll. Woods, however, tend to fly lower than tour pros hit it, and it takes a fairly good strike to get a good high one. Driver is similar again to the tour pros (on a good strike of course).

You have a swing and ball flight where "consistency" is the only thing that differs from the pros? Post that somewhere - that would be a great swing to take as an example.

[Shanks A Million]

You have a swing and ball flight where "consistency" is the only thing that differs from the pros? Post that somewhere - that would be a great swing to take as an example.

Not really, that's not entirely uncommon. On a good strike, most people with decent clubhead speed are going to hit it roughly the same. The reason I'm less consistent is that my clubshaft doesn't lean forward as much at impact, and I'm not on plane as long as they are. Tour pros hit it all sorts of ways; high, low, slice, hook, etc. What they do, however, is the same thing time after time.

[ohiolefty]

Those claims are pretty amazing, Shanks. I hit the ball really well for an amateur player. Yet, I watch guys on tour and there are only a few I feel like I could really hang with at all...let alone hit shots 'similar' to. Craziness.

But...not as crazy as trying to make some concious correction on your driver swing related to degrees of out and in. That's the height of insanity. And we all know about the reliability of the tips in Golf Digest/Golf Magazine.

[Shanks A Million]

Those claims are pretty amazing, Shanks. I hit the ball really well for an amateur player. Yet, I watch guys on tour and there are only a few I feel like I could really hang with at all...let alone hit shots 'similar' to. Craziness.

You've taken my words well out of context. I

said when I strike it well , my trajectory is about the same as a tour pro. They hit the ball roughly 100 feet into the air with every club, where they land fairly softly. I went out onto the range and watched them hit, and I found they hit the ball no higher or farther than I did on their average strike, vs. my good strike. Like I said, the main difference is that they do it every time, and they control the direction much better. I don't hit it that well every time. My long irons often fail to land softly, theirs rarely do.

[iacas]

Getting back to the original post... no, I think that answer is stupid.

I think you may have read a d-plane message - if you hit down (with irons) the plane shifts to the right, and if you hit up (as they sometimes want you to do) with a driver, the plane shifts to the left.

[keiko]

Ludicrous, that's all I can say but again most golf mags. are rags and are driven by ads not by quality of instruction. Tell any teaching pro that stuff and watch them roll on the floor.

So, I'm sitting at the doctor's office and run across an article on page 102 that

[sean_miller]

Ludicrous, that's all I can say but again most golf mags. are rags and are driven by ads not by quality of instruction. Tell any teaching pro that stuff and watch them roll on the floor.

Why is this garbage. I'd trust a Golf Digest article that uses Trackman data over an anonymous interweb GD hater. Does anyone have alternate theories on the ideal swing path for irons v. the driver?

[Old1964]

I don't know what a D plane analysis is...but, this is the chart they published based on their research.

October 2010 Golf Magazine - pg 102 - The chart reads as follows:

A Table of Two Golf Swings

ATTACK ANGLE ------------------PATH

Driver 5* up ------------ 5* left-to-right
7 Iron 3* down ----------2* right-to-left

This is the paragraph: " New research from digital swing analyzer TrackMan shows that good players swing from outside-in and with a descending angle of attack with their wedges and irons, and from inside-out and with an ascending angle of attack with a driver. Most golfers groove only one of these types of swings, and when you apply it to the wrong club you end up with a serious dose of shotmaking misery."

Written by: T.J. Tomasi, PGA Learning Center, Port St. Lucie, Florida

Earlier he says, "You need two swings: one for your driver and one for your irons."

I know that we all practice two swings - no good golfer I know attempt to hit their driver like the wedge. Also, I would assume there is no disagreement as to the attack angle - hitting the irons with a descending blow and the driver with an ascending blow.

The only issue is swing path. Here's my follow-up question - does the data suggest that hitting irons with a slightly outside is advantageous? Is this reasonable to practice in light of the fact that we all practice two swings already.

[Stretch]

There's an issue with more than swing path. 5* up for "good players"? According to Trackman (the company's) own in-house data, the average attack angle for male PGA tour golfers with the driver is -1.3*.

[iacas]

I don't know what a D plane analysis is

I don't have the article in front of me, but I think it's relevant. The D plane talks about adjusting the plane to hit a straight shot...

Basically, with a plane line square to the target, contact made with a descending blow will be slightly in to out and contact made with an ascending blow will be slightly out to in. So if you adjust the plane to the right or left you can hit a straight shot.

I know that we all practice two swings - no good golfer I know attempt to hit their driver like the wedge.

Quite a few do. I do. We don't teach people different swings.

The only issue is swing path. Here's my follow-up question - does the data suggest that hitting irons with a slightly outside is advantageous? Is this reasonable to practice in light of the fact that we all practice two swings already.

I don't teach people different swings. You seem to believe that everything published in magazines is true...

I'll try to find my copy of the article, but if someone has a scan of the entire article it would provide some context.

[Old1964]

Interesting about Trackman's own in-house data. I'm wondering if the guy who wrote the article drew some improper correlations between the numbers or is a hack like Erik implies.

I thought that this was a matter of semantics.
When they talk about grooving two swings, I took that to mean - swings that are basically the same except for the angle of attack and swing path. That's all.

For clarification, Erik, when you say you only teach one swing...
Do you mean to say that though the angle of attack changes from wedge to driver, the swing path should stay the same?

I appreciate your thoughtful interaction Erik - the D plane insights sound interesting. I will check back to see if you are able to post the article.

Thanks!

P.S. I don't believe everything in a magazine is true, that's why I posted - hoping to have good disccussion.

[iacas]

Interesting about Trackman's own in-house data. I'm wondering if the guy who wrote the article drew some improper correlations between the numbers or is a hack like Erik implies.

No such implication whatsoever. Virtually everything I've heard about TJ is good.

I thought that this was a matter of semantics.

If that's all, then consider the attack angles shown here. This data, too, comes from Trackman:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...-Tour-vs.-LPGA Negative angle of attack with the driver.

For clarification, Erik, when you say you only teach one swing...

Yes, among other things. One swing, and the only thing that changes is how far forward you need to move the "circle" in order to continue to hit down, out, and forward.

If you have the magazine, scan or photograph the entire article and post it. I'm not sure where my October Golf magazine is. Is the article online?

[Old1964]

Thanks for the post. Love the charts. I'll be saving them.
I'll scan the article and get it posted Sunday afternoon.
I have not found the article online...