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kennay92

Martin Hall sounded completely wrong!

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I was watching the school of golf the came on yesterday and a few things sounded wrong and contradicted the new ball flight laws( or i believe so). First he said all slices are caused by an open club face. But with the new laws hasn't it been concluded the club face angle determines where the ball starts and swing path relative to target line determines spin? With that he said the way to correct a slice was to close the face earlier and just use a stronger grip, which really is just short-term "bandaid" cures rather than a solution. Lastly he said hitting more down on the ball does not cause higher ball flight rather getting rid of your lag earlier/ releasing the club earlier in the down swing will get you higher ball flight. That's pretty much saying flipping the club is good? Any one else see this or am I completely wrong?

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I didn't see the show, but I sure hate instructors that just say "open club face"! It means nothing if it isn't followed by relative to the target line or swing path. I agree with you re: his cure although it is not really a short-term cure as it will get people hitting lovely pulls and pull hooks.

You are being a bit harsh on him with the final point. He wouldn't have said flipping was good. I always think flipping is where the club head overtakes the hands at impact and that is bad. In what he seems to be describing, the more you reduce the amount of lag the higher your ball flight. That may be a good thing if you need to hit over a tree, but generally contact will not be as solid and you won't get such a penetrating ball flight. In calm conditions you'll also lose distance,

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Martin's approach is too dumbed down with oversimplified 'tips', even for TV. I finally had enough when he said to hold onto the right wrist bend as long as possible.

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I watch the show.  I'm not a teacher, pro, or really even a very good golfer.  Marty wasn't teaching a flip move so much as a cast move.  What a great swing technique.

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Originally Posted by tm22721

Martin's approach is too dumbed down with oversimplified 'tips', even for TV. I finally had enough when he said to hold onto the right wrist bend as long as possible.



Isn't that what best golfers tend to do...? Keep the angle as long as possible? They in fact tend to work with their muscles against early release. Or am I getting something wrong here?

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

Isn't that what best golfers tend to do...? Keep the angle as long as possible? They in fact tend to work with their muscles against early release. Or am I getting something wrong here?



That is right. I didn't see the show, so I don't know what he specifically was talking about. On a full swing you will want to hold the right arm flying wedge as long as possible, "hinge and hold", no rolling of the clubface or flipping of the wrists.

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

You are being a bit harsh on him with the final point. He wouldn't have said flipping was good. I always think flipping is where the club head overtakes the hands at impact and that is bad. In what he seems to be describing, the more you reduce the amount of lag the higher your ball flight. That may be a good thing if you need to hit over a tree, but generally contact will not be as solid and you won't get such a penetrating ball flight. In calm conditions you'll also lose distance,


I have the show recorded and haven't watched it yet, but I've heard about this part and intend to watch it and perhaps record it and put it on YouTube or something. People I trust said he had the club shaft inline with his left arm well before impact.

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I figured he would get burned on here based on last nights episode, especially when demonstrating the opening and closing of the clubface with the black and white broom.  Not sure though whether he is advocating an active rotation of the clubface through impact (ala AJ Bonar) or simply demonstrating how to get a feel for a neutral clubface at impact. In his defense, he did have one drill to promote an inside to out swing path in addition with the drills to prevent an open clubface at impact.

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Originally Posted by kennay92

I was watching the school of golf the came on yesterday and a few things sounded wrong and contradicted the new ball flight laws( or i believe so). First he said all slices are caused by an open club face. But with the new laws hasn't it been concluded the club face angle determines where the ball starts and swing path relative to target line determines spin? With that he said the way to correct a slice was to close the face earlier and just use a stronger grip, which really is just short-term "bandaid" cures rather than a solution. Lastly he said hitting more down on the ball does not cause higher ball flight rather getting rid of your lag earlier/ releasing the club earlier in the down swing will get you higher ball flight. That's pretty much saying flipping the club is good? Any one else see this or am I completely wrong?


Did he use the words "open to the final target" or "open to the swing path"?

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Originally Posted by kennay92

I was watching the school of golf the came on yesterday and a few things sounded wrong and contradicted the new ball flight laws( or i believe so). First he said all slices are caused by an open club face. But with the new laws hasn't it been concluded the club face angle determines where the ball starts and swing path relative to target line determines spin? With that he said the way to correct a slice was to close the face earlier and just use a stronger grip, which really is just short-term "bandaid" cures rather than a solution. Lastly he said hitting more down on the ball does not cause higher ball flight rather getting rid of your lag earlier/ releasing the club earlier in the down swing will get you higher ball flight. That's pretty much saying flipping the club is good? Any one else see this or am I completely wrong?



Kennay, I am glad you posted on this.  I watched this segment as well, and I couldn't believe what I was hearing and seeing.  His comment about a slice being a larger issue of clubface than swing path got to me right away.  Does he even watch tour players hit draws?

Martin also used a broom which was painted white and black on opposite sides.  He advocated turning the hands so much that the back of the left hand feels as if it's facing down near impact, with the forearms colliding due to a "closing" of the clubhead.

His concept of ball flight laws, and particularly impact position were pretty contrary to what I personally believe.  A caller had asked if hitting down on the ball caused higher trajectory, and he answered this question as if the caller had too much shaft lean.  More than likely, the caller struggled with impact and likely wasn't close to generating enough lag and shaft lean.  Martin seemed to advocate flipping and taking minimal divots.

I don't think we need instruction on how to flip and smother the ball, and I feel bad that some players will take this to heart.

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Originally Posted by delav

Kennay, I am glad you posted on this.  I watched this segment as well, and I couldn't believe what I was hearing and seeing.  His comment about a slice being a larger issue of clubface than swing path got to me right away.  Does he even watch tour players hit draws?

Martin also used a broom which was painted white and black on opposite sides.  He advocated turning the hands so much that the back of the left hand feels as if it's facing down near impact, with the forearms colliding due to a "closing" of the clubhead.

His concept of ball flight laws, and particularly impact position were pretty contrary to what I personally believe.  A caller had asked if hitting down on the ball caused higher trajectory, and he answered this question as if the caller had too much shaft lean.  More than likely, the caller struggled with impact and likely wasn't close to generating enough lag and shaft lean.  Martin seemed to advocate flipping and taking minimal divots.

I don't think we need instruction on how to flip and smother the ball, and I feel bad that some players will take this to heart.


I was watching a bit of this show and this was what I got out of the instruction as well. He wasn't advocating flipping but I can see how easily someone would start to flip the club if his advice were followed. I really don't see the appeal of golf tip shows. Unless you have a qualified instructor that knows something about you and your swing it's very difficult to understand the context of what is being taught. Reason #549 why I have stuck with my instructor for close to 10 years.

I think I am going to start my own show. I'll call it "Goin' Golfin" It will be filled with contradictory advice and quick band-aids and after a 1/2 hour of silly nonsense with lots of props I will close the show with, "Burn every magazine that contains golf tips and shut off the damn TV. Seek out a qualified instructor that you click with and my your card be full of birdies."

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Originally Posted by 1par2win

I was watching a bit of this show and this was what I got out of the instruction as well. He wasn't advocating flipping but I can see how easily someone would start to flip the club if his advice were followed. I really don't see the appeal of golf tip shows. Unless you have a qualified instructor that knows something about you and your swing it's very difficult to understand the context of what is being taught. Reason #549 why I have stuck with my instructor for close to 10 years.

I think I am going to start my own show. I'll call it "Goin' Golfin" It will be filled with contradictory advice and quick band-aids and after a 1/2 hour of silly nonsense with lots of props I will close the show with, "Burn every magazine that contains golf tips and shut off the damn TV. Seek out a qualified instructor that you click with and my your card be full of birdies."


If someone was a bit judgmental, he or she would assume that after almost 10 years, you must getting a lot of bogeys along with those birdies, or your instructor is not qualified.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

If someone was a bit judgmental, he or she would assume that after almost 10 years, you must getting a lot of bogeys along with those birdies, or your instructor is not qualified.


Not sure I am following you. My point was I believe tips and instruction found in magazines and TV are not all that effective unless you understand the whys and wherefores. This is usually the result of having a good instuctor. It has nothing to do with being judgmental. It has to to with the inherent limitation of golf instuction to a mass audience at one time.

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Originally Posted by 1par2win

Not sure I am following you. My point was I believe tips and instruction found in magazines and TV are not all that effective unless you understand the whys and wherefores. This is usually the result of having a good instuctor. It has nothing to do with being judgmental. It has to to with the inherent limitation of golf instuction to a mass audience at one time.


I believe it was a tounge-in-cheek reference to your handicap and therefore credibility.  I agree with you though, band-aids don't help without a solid understanding of the fundamentals beneath them.

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Originally Posted by delav

I believe it was a tounge-in-cheek reference to your handicap and therefore credibility.  I agree with you though, band-aids don't help without a solid understanding of the fundamentals beneath them.



Did it occur to anyone that I might be a horse$%$# golfer even after 10 years? Just sayin'...

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Originally Posted by 1par2win

Did it occur to anyone that I might be a horse$%$# golfer even after 10 years? Just sayin'...


No worries, there is nothing wrong with an honest 11.8 to begin with.  I could take dance lessons for the rest of my life and still humiliate my wife every time I chose to dance in public.

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Originally Posted by 1par2win

I think I am going to start my own show. I'll call it "Goin' Golfin" It will be filled with contradictory advice and quick band-aids and after a 1/2 hour of silly nonsense with lots of props


I'd watch. Couldn't be worse than what's out there now. ;-)

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OK, from what I've gathered from these posts is that somehow the braintrust of expertise on ball flight laws (which I see a lot of references to on TST) is somehow concentrated all on this site, which is pretty amazing.

In any case, please educamate me on what causes a slice, because as an engineer, I look at things pretty logically.  And logically, I don't see how you slice the ball if the club face is not open at impact.  The one exception I can envision is an extreme outside-in swing plane might impart enough side-spin to partially overcome a pull shot, but I have a hard time believing even that.  I am sure that there have been plenty of studies done on ball flight using mechanical swing machines, so please enlighten me.

I would also add that the Golf Channel held open auditions for the position that Martin Hall now holds, so if you really feel like he and the rest of the golf instructing universe is so far offbase on their teaching, I encourage you to apply.

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