Square to the Arc (from Roy)

[Harmonious]

According to your referenced website, this photo is described as a "square to the arc backswing position". Look at the clubface.  It is 90* open to the arc.  Keeping the clubface square for as long as possible both in the backswing and downswing is good, no disagreement.  But this shows that your teacher/guru is not teaching to keep the clubface square throughout the entire swing. He can't, because it isn't possible from a physical standpoint. What he calls "square to the arc" just means "don't consciously rotate your forearms back or through".  That's it.

[roy2xeagle]

you need to read ALL the article.....the clubface is basically laying on the arc facing the sky....it is still "square to the arc"(180 or very close)....and my forearms  do not rotate......put your left hand on the golf club and show 4 knuckles and you will see that your forearm doesnt have to rotate.....No forearm rotation.....when i see my club facing the sky its def perfectly square to the arc of the swing plane,,,if you say its 90 degrees then so be it(90 degrees to me is parallel to the arc)..if you rotate the club up then its perfectly parallel to the swing -plane or perpendicular to the arc...i call what you call 90 degrees  laying perfectly across the plane and staying there until impact...does that help at all...if you see my swing you will just say its like my "teacher/guru".....the clubface simply "turns over" as the back swing progresses to facing the sky and to me the clubface itself is laying at 180 degrees......if you read the article you will see that...some students have some rotation while others dont........this if "you dont rotate then the club is over your head" is ridiculous!!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by roy2xeagle

and my forearms  do not rotate...if you say its 90 degrees then so be it(90 degrees to me is parallel to the arc)

It's rotated 90 degrees from where it started. It started square to the arc at setup.

You're not understanding what people are telling you, but I've reached my limit in trying to explain it to you.

P.S. A clubface pointing straight up at the sky is considered closed, because with 90 degrees of rotation a "square" clubface is roughly on the left arm line at the top of the backswing.

[bunkerputt]

Roy,  your arms can rotate and keep the club face square.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by roy2xeagle

you need to read ALL the article.....the clubface is basically laying on the arc facing the sky....it is still "square to the arc"(180 or very close)....and my forearms  do not rotate......put your left hand on the golf club and show 4 knuckles and you will see that your forearm doesnt have to rotate.....No forearm rotation.....when i see my club facing the sky its def perfectly square to the arc of the swing plane,,,if you say its 90 degrees then so be it(90 degrees to me is parallel to the arc)..if you rotate the club up then its perfectly parallel to the swing -plane or perpendicular to the arc...i call what you call 90 degrees  laying perfectly across the plane and staying there until impact...does that help at all...if you see my swing you will just say its like my "teacher/guru".....the clubface simply "turns over" as the back swing progresses to facing the sky and to me the clubface itself is laying at 180 degrees......if you read the article you will see that...some students have some rotation while others dont........this if "you dont rotate then the club is over your head" is ridiculous!!

Okay, Roy.  You've had 26 posts, all about this "square to the arc" phenomenon that you and your guru have discovered.  What's your angle?  Do you have any other interest in golf, other than to promote this new discovery?  Seems you are very interested in directing everyone to your favorite website, and nothing else.

[Zeph]

It is a pretty poor "invention" if you're not able to convince anyone how it really works.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by roy2xeagle

you need to read ALL the article.....the clubface is basically laying on the arc facing the sky....it is still "square to the arc"(180 or very close)....and my forearms  do not rotate......put your left hand on the golf club and show 4 knuckles and you will see that your forearm doesnt have to rotate.....No forearm rotation.....when i see my club facing the sky its def perfectly square to the arc of the swing plane,,,if you say its 90 degrees then so be it(90 degrees to me is parallel to the arc)..if you rotate the club up then its perfectly parallel to the swing -plane or perpendicular to the arc...i call what you call 90 degrees  laying perfectly across the plane and staying there until impact...does that help at all...if you see my swing you will just say its like my "teacher/guru".....the clubface simply "turns over" as the back swing progresses to facing the sky and to me the clubface itself is laying at 180 degrees......if you read the article you will see that...some students have some rotation while others dont........this if "you dont rotate then the club is over your head" is ridiculous!!

The swing plane can range from the hands to the elbows, maybe higher. For the clubhead to stay square the swing plane it must keep its original angles to the swing plant at address. Meaning, there are an x,y,z coordinates. I am assuming that swing plan itself is at zero. From the ball to the target is x, from the ground to your head is y, and from you to the ball is z. The swing plane is on the x-y coordinate plane, angled on the y-z plane. The clubface, squared to the target line, is an z-y plane, thats angled on the x-y plane. Since the plane is circular in shape (general terms). that is the angle of the oringal square set up with the clubface must stay tangant to the swing path at all times.

Now if you look at the top of the swing, the clubface is now pointing 90 degrees away from its original orientation, because it is not tangant to the swing path anymore. To be tangant to the swing path, the clubface must be be oriented at the top such that the will be pointing, were the x axis value would be positive meaingin the direction of the target. The y-axis will be positive meaning pointing towards the sky. and the z axis will be negative, meaning pointing towards you, or past you behind you. The clubhead would be angled in such a way that the heal would be pointing at the ground behind you, and the angle formed from the heel to the toe would be such that its the angle of the swing path -90 degrees.

Like above, they show the clubface pointing parallel to the swing path (not square). Which shows the vectors as (negative x, positive y, postive z), and the clubhead angle is such that is the angle of the swing path +180 degrees, or 90 degrees rotated from the original starting position.

[roy2xeagle]

First of all if my swing matched that of your example i would agree with you....he has rotated his his forearms which have rotated his wrists to get to that position...think about taking your right hand by itself...keeping your palm facing the ball and taking it back as if you were gonna slap someone...would you rotate it open then back..i dont think so........

[roy2xeagle]

First of all didnt invent anything...took someone at their word went out and tried it..it worked for me....  therefore thought i would share it......if you want to know where it came from its from NEWHORIZONSGOLF.com......i dont have a golf instructor or "guru" as some of our infamous country club pros like to say.........just found something that works better than the most complicated golf swing than ive ever seen....instead of fundamentals we should call it "complications"..  hell it took Ben Hogan most of his life to figure it out....lol...good luck.....and for most of you with closed minds   good luck..youll need it   as for me..im really very happy with a 4 or 5 handicap off the back tees at age 60.....email is BJMCD@hotmail.com...if you ever want to play...warning if you dont hit the ball over 250 then be prepared to be short all day long....because i will.....my last post as to the delight of most here...bye bye........ps..not quite gone yet....just wanted to say this...didnt say my swing was best for everyone..never said that..but def better for me and worth experimenting with if you have the "balls"...

[roy2xeagle]

Not a discovery been around for years and years...you need to do some reading and research....players such as Tom Watson..David Duval..to name a few have and continue to use STA.......oh yes and now ive posted 28 times.....have a good day

[roy2xeagle]

ACCUMULATORS?....LMAO

[iacas]

Originally Posted by roy2xeagle

Not a discovery been around for years and years...you need to do some reading and research....players such as Tom Watson..David Duval..to name a few have and continue to use STA.......oh yes and now ive posted 28 times.....have a good day

No, they didn't. They, like everyone else, turned their left arm 90 degrees.

You're in a time out, Roy. Sorry. You're not contributing anywhere else on this forum and you're not even reading what people are writing. "LYAO" somewhere else for awhile.

[mymizunosrock]

The inside of my elbows are hurting just thinking about this...

[luu5]

Originally Posted by roy2xeagle

you are forgetting that the wrist cock is not the convention where the right wrist cocks up..the right wrist cocks to the right at the same time the left wrists also cocks to the right..i forget if its called supination or pronation....

And actually it is not called either of them. But I guess this also is a dead horse.

[saevel25]

Sorry Rory your wrong.. I tried what you said, keeping the right hand towards the ball, I can do that till about just under the shoulder, then to get to the top, my right wright bust break back and my right elbow must break down. When you do this, your right elbow joint goes from pointing 45 degrees from the ball to the target, that is the inside of your elbow (were they normally would draw blood for at the doctors office). That area then points up in the air at the top of the swing. This action, is a rotation in the shoulder join, since it is a ball and socket joint. This in turn has to rotate the left forearm clockwise for a right handed person, to maintain that flat rist at the top of the swing.

[iacas]

I've shot the video. I'll annotate it and put it up on YouTube later this evening.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by iacas

I've shot the video. I'll annotate it and put it up on YouTube later this evening.

Here you go, Roy. I'll let you out of the Penalty Box now so you can admit that you understand what we've been saying all along now.

[jamo]

I think that's my favorite of your recent videos. I've been reading this thread for a while (and I had remembered [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane]this one[/URL] from a while ago), but I hadn't commented because I didn't have much of an opinion either way (I never really gave it much thought). But that was very descriptive, well done. And yes, when I heard that email tone I instinctively checked Mail again. :-P