I Love Hitting a Fade!

[mdl]

My natural ball flight with my driver is generally a fade, and with my scoring irons my miss is usually a push fade, but unless I need to bend it into a green I prefer neither a fade nor a draw.  I like the ball the start where I want it and go damn straight so it finishes where I want it!

[jhwmusic]

Exactly, "Loosely" considered...and it couldn't be more wrong.  Most people think that ALL tour pros stock shot is a draw...not true...it's actually the complete opposite.  I don't think people understand what a stock shot it.  Stock shot is a shot that you feel most comfortable hitting in pressure situations.   Tiger, Mickelson, Anthony Kim, Mcilroy, Jb Holmes, Couples, Nicklaus and so on all hit a fade as their go to or stock shot.   Tour Pros hit fades as their "stock" shot because it is a more controlled due to less hand action...they are constantly trying to avoid the dreaded hook.  Yes, they will draw the ball as well but that is because they are freaking tour pros and are able to do it...some better than others.   There are tour pros that fade it all over the course.  And there isn't a 10 handicapper in the entire world that can consistently control both shot shapes...if there is, he must have THE worst short game on the entire planet.  And all I was trying to say on my previous post was to go with what god gave you until you are in the low single digits.  if you hit a slice, work on turning it into a controlled fade.  If your miss is a hook, work on turning that into a controlled 4-5 yard draw.

Originally Posted by Chief Broom

There is a big difference between a controlled fade and a slice.  I think some of this bias comes from the fact that the typical miss for the average high handicapper is a slice.  Whereas after that high-capper learns more about the game and improves they are able to turn that slice into a draw.  So in a way hitting a draw can loosely be considered the "stock" shot shape of the more accomplished golfer.

[jhwmusic]

People Like that remind me of the guy in the Wilson Staff commercials.  Seriously?

Originally Posted by i-Guy

[Chief Broom]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

And all I was trying to say on my previous post was to go with what god gave you until you are in the low single digits.  if you hit a slice, work on turning it into a controlled fade.  If your miss is a hook, work on turning that into a controlled 4-5 yard draw.

I don't disagree, but I think there is a fundamental difference between the controlled fade pros hit and the fade (formally slice) most amateurs hit.  I used my fade/slice to fairly good effect insofar as it got me down to a 15hdc, but then my progress stalled.  That's because my fade/slice was caused by a dramatic over the top swing that had me cutting across the ball.  Those pros you mention hit a fade while swinging on plane and manipulate their shot shape by contrasting their face angle at impact with their swing path. Not to say some of those pros didn't aim as far left as I did when I compensated for my slice, but their ball flight and it's characteristics were dramatically different.  Nicklaus and Trevino both could aim way left but their ball was starting out much closer to their intended line and generally speaking didn't fade an overly dramatic amount (not that they couldn't hit the banana ball when necessary).  My ball flight was probably turning a good 50yrds or more (easily more) because my swing fundamentals were unsound and certainly couldn't produce their kind of power.   When you swing on plane with good fundamentals even a small person like Ricky Fowler can easily hit a 300+yrd tee shot.  That OTT swinger, even a big guy, is doing good to get one out there 200-250yds and that's swinging out of his shoes.

My point is many golfers start out with poor fundamentals and mechanics, and as a general rule slice the ball dramatically, but over time figure out (through trial and error or lessons) how to generate power and that usually means that the dramatic slice disappears and is replaced by the draw (or a true power fade).

[jhwmusic]

I wasn't disagreeing with you either.  And I agree there is a difference between tour pros and amateurs fades...I never said anything about them being the same.  I think you are reading too far into my post.    And Trevino didn't really hit a fade...he hit a straight ball push.  And rickie Fowler doesn't really have the greatest fundamentals to follow...nor does he stay on plane throughout is swing.  It is a completely home made loopy swing that I wouldn't tell anyone to try and copy.  But the sad thing is, there are a bunch of kids wearing orange flat brim hats trying to swing like him...instead of copying people like Rory Mcilroy who has the best swing on the planet.  There is nothing wrong with copying...I actually urge the kids that I teach to do this...as long as that person doesn't swing like JD.

And yes, most amateurs do have poor fundamentals.  But hitting a draw or fade isn't based solely on fundamentals.  You can take two people who are just starting out and give them the exact same grip, same setup, same clubs and so on, but that doesn't mean they are both going to naturally hit a draw.  It has a lot to do with body type, flexibility, swing speeds.  The factors are endless.   People need to stop being so obsessed with this " on plane" swing that has 85% of you golfers will never accomplish because your bodies won't allow it.  What happened to being athletic and putting the club face on the ball?  Worry about that first.  people are watching too much Golf Channel and reading too many golf magazines and then going to the range and trying all this crap they read.  Some of these guys are trying so hard to be "on plane" that there swings become rigid and they can't hit the ball out of their shadow.  Don't be a ROBOT!!!  Be athletic!

Originally Posted by Chief Broom

I don't disagree, but I think there is a fundamental difference between the controlled fade pros hit and the fade (formally slice) most amateurs hit.  I used my fade/slice to fairly good effect insofar as it got me down to a 15hdc, but then my progress stalled.  That's because my fade/slice was caused by a dramatic over the top swing that had me cutting across the ball.  Those pros you mention hit a fade while swinging on plane and manipulate their shot shape by contrasting their face angle at impact with their swing path. Not to say some of those pros didn't aim as far left as I did when I compensated for my slice, but their ball flight and it's characteristics were dramatically different.  Nicklaus and Trevino both could aim way left but their ball was starting out much closer to their intended line and generally speaking didn't fade an overly dramatic amount (not that they couldn't hit the banana ball when necessary).  My ball flight was probably turning a good 50yrds or more (easily more) because my swing fundamentals were unsound and certainly couldn't produce their kind of power.   When you swing on plane with good fundamentals even a small person like Ricky Fowler can easily hit a 300+yrd tee shot.  That OTT swinger, even a big guy, is doing good to get one out there 200-250yds and that's swinging out of his shoes.

My point is many golfers start out with poor fundamentals and mechanics, and as a general rule slice the ball dramatically, but over time figure out (through trial and error or lessons) how to generate power and that usually means that the dramatic slice disappears and is replaced by the draw (or a true power fade).

[Tomboys]

IMO, players get too hung up on certain myths "defining" a good golfer.  For instance, myths such as; good golfers draw the ball, good golfers play blades, good golfers miss putts on the high side, good golfers play from the blue (or further back tee boxes), etc. all don't mean a hill of beans if the player has poor swing mechanics. I don't need to look any further than myself to know that the above myths aren't worth the breath to speak them when it comes defining a good golfer.

Draw (check), blades--albeit just the lower irons because I have a blended set (check), missing putts on the high side (check), play from the blue tee boxes (check)...yet, I wouldn't put myself into the category of a good golfer.  Fortunately, my ballstriking has improved over the past year and my putting has been very good, hence, my handicap dropped into the single digit last year.  However, my ballstriking ability is still too suspect at this point for me to consider myself a good golfer.  If I had to grade myself on ballstriking--using a scale where an A is a scratch golfer and an F is a brand new golfer, I'd rate myself a pretty decent C+.

[kathybhylton]

Great for you Ben! That's how golf should be enjoyed. I'm into fades too. But these time I'm trying hard for my swings..

[michaeljames92]

Dude, Mcilroy hits a draw on almost every shot. Usually big push draws, too.

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

Exactly, "Loosely" considered...and it couldn't be more wrong.  Most people think that ALL tour pros stock shot is a draw...not true...it's actually the complete opposite.  I don't think people understand what a stock shot it.  Stock shot is a shot that you feel most comfortable hitting in pressure situations.   Tiger, Mickelson, Anthony Kim, Mcilroy, Jb Holmes, Couples, Nicklaus and so on all hit a fade as their go to or stock shot.   Tour Pros hit fades as their "stock" shot because it is a more controlled due to less hand action...they are constantly trying to avoid the dreaded hook.  Yes, they will draw the ball as well but that is because they are freaking tour pros and are able to do it...some better than others.   There are tour pros that fade it all over the course.  And there isn't a 10 handicapper in the entire world that can consistently control both shot shapes...if there is, he must have THE worst short game on the entire planet.  And all I was trying to say on my previous post was to go with what god gave you until you are in the low single digits.  if you hit a slice, work on turning it into a controlled fade.  If your miss is a hook, work on turning that into a controlled 4-5 yard draw.

[saevel25]

There are some players who it a pull fade, i believe Colin Montgomery did. I believed Jack hit a push fade, and some players hit straight pushes or straight pulls, some hit pull draws. There isn't a correlation between majors, or championships won and the type of shot you play. Tiger played every shot in the bag, Jack played a push fade, Arnie played a draw. As long as you can do something over and over again the same way, you can play this game really really good. But when i talk pull fade, i am not saying a big sweeping slice. I mean, a slight pull with a slight fade. Basically a very small over the top move, with a slightly open clubface to that swing path.

[colin007]

i think Paul Azinger hit a pull fade.  also, i think Martin Kaymer hits a pull fade, as does Vijay Singh at times.

[Ben]

Fade for President 2012!

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by Ben

Fade for President 2012!

No thanks....I'd prefer the President position not move more to the right!

[jhwmusic]

Dude, Mcilroy hits a draw on almost every shot. Usually big push draws, too.

I actually knew that...not even sure why I wrote it. I was mad typing and didn't really read what I wrote. oops!

[i-Guy]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

And yes, most amateurs do have poor fundamentals.  But hitting a draw or fade isn't based solely on fundamentals.  You can take two people who are just starting out and give them the exact same grip, same setup, same clubs and so on, but that doesn't mean they are both going to naturally hit a draw.  It has a lot to do with body type, flexibility, swing speeds.  The factors are endless.   People need to stop being so obsessed with this " on plane" swing that has 85% of you golfers will never accomplish because your bodies won't allow it.  What happened to being athletic and putting the club face on the ball?  Worry about that first.  people are watching too much Golf Channel and reading too many golf magazines and then going to the range and trying all this crap they read.  Some of these guys are trying so hard to be "on plane" that there swings become rigid and they can't hit the ball out of their shadow.  Don't be a ROBOT!!!  Be athletic!

BOOM!!! This is very well written and I especially like this part:

"What happened to being athletic and putting the club face on the ball?  Worry about that first."

From my very first swing I have always faded the ball...it is a pull fade (no doubt) as it is a slight over the top move...but for the most part (for some reason...see quote above) I seem to be able to put the club on the ball and know where it is going...I am currently playing to an 8 but have been as low as a 6 and my lowest round ever is a 74 using this swing (shot 2 under on the front 9 and had one bad hole on the back 9)...anyway my story is that for the last two years I have been going back and forth between my natural swing (fade bias) and a S&T type swing...I will explain more later but not real sure (???) why I keep trying this as I even putt my best when I use an open stance (Raymond Floyd)...it seems for whatever reason per the quote below I see the game left to right from every aspect:

"You can take two people who are just starting out and give them the exact same grip, same setup, same clubs and so on, but that doesn't mean they are both going to naturally hit a draw.  It has a lot to do with body type, flexibility, swing speeds.  The factors are endless."

I have taken lessons to learn to draw the ball and when I set up that way everything feels like it is sooooooo far to the left of me that my over the top move gets even worse because my hand-to-eye coordination wants to swing to the target...I have been told by quite a few Pro's that I have great hand-to-eye coordination as they see it in my short game (very solid)

Anyway I have been fighting myself for the last two years as this Pro has been trying to convince me to do this S&T type swing (I say S&T type because it has many aspects of the S&T but not all)...he is a very good teacher (Pro) and player (qualified for the 2006 Senior PGA Championship) and he tells me that with the S&T swing I get into much better positions...I have shot a couple of 78's with this swing but it feels very mechanical and I dont feel like I am in control of the ball...I feel like I am just executing a swing method...I have shot some very bad rounds with this swing as well...BUT I have shot some pretty bad rounds with my fade swing also???

I am not a Pro and have a real job and my application to either process has been spotty at best over the past two years due to work...anyway I can always find some verions of my fade swing and when it is on I hit a lot of PGA Tour quality golf shots (very high, slight fade, great distance control, stops on a dime, etc...)...I am also at least a club longer with my fade swing then this S&T type swing for some reason???

My biggest problem with my fade swing is off the tee as I do get quite steep (I am 6'4 so my swing tends to be upright) and with a Driver I tend to hit down too much and dont get the distance or control I desire...I am currently hitting a strong 3 wood off the tee as this seems to work better...I think it may just be a matter of finding the right driver (shaft and loft) but have not found it yet.

Bottom line is I have made a committment to my "Fade Swing" for the next year and try to work out a few bugs (off the tee)...

FADE Swings RULE!!!

[NuclearMike]

Since I'm not a long hitter I have worked on drawing the ball rather than fading it since I've come back to golf.  I can still hit the fade when needed but tend toward a draw with my driver and hybrids and a straight ball with irons.  I used to hit a fade and feel that that cost me some yards.

[David in FL]

You can talk to a fade..... .....but a hook won't listen!

[mdl]

I've worked so long against my constant miss, the push and push-fade, that I never really developed a purposeful fade that I liked.  I can hit a huge soft cut shot that goes like two clubs short and moves hard enough right it might be called a purposeful cut slice on purpose, but never really worked on a purposeful good powerful fade cause I was always fighting so hard against the unwanted push-fade.  Now I've finally started to figure out what release and extension mean and have been trying to overcome my endless push-fade problem by playing only a draw on every shot for now.  Finally starting to feel what having satisfying athletic control over the club face might feel like eventually.

I could definitely see eventually coming back around and wanting to develop a solid purposeful fade that's not 2 clubs short.  As of now I think I'd probably go with the Nicklaus style open stance power push fade so I don't have to learn too many different swing paths (relative to my body) but can instead just adjust stance and aggressiveness of extension and release.  I've tried that purposeful powerful push fade a few times on the course recently when I've hit what I'm trying to hit as a draw straight and left myself too snug up against the trees on the right.  But I haven't been working on the new extension and release long enough yet so when I open the stance a bit and actively try not to double-cross it, closing the face square to the path hitting it way left of the target, then I leave the face WAY open and hit a hard fade/slice that starts even further right than I want and then turns way harder right than I want.  Oh well.  I'll come back to it after I feel in control of the draw.