What should I ask during first lesson

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

I'd ask how much do you charge and can you assure me that I will make significant improvement.  The average golf score in america still is around 100 despite all the tech progress and all the PGA pros teaching who knows what.  Very few golfers improve. Been playing at the same course a long time. Same guys, same swings, same scores.  Get someone who thinks outside the box because inside the box doesn't work. Look how many different bits of advice you got here on these posts.  Nobody can agree on the right way to go about this game.

What box is that? The one where a green in regulation is a yes or no answer, a par matters, and there are many ways to teach generally unathletic people to get around the course without emarassing themselves too badly?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Shindig

Maybe ask a few instructors what they tend to do on the first lesson with someone who hasn't been playing long.

If they insist you master grip, posture, and stance first, go find someone else.

If they prefer to get you started on fundamentals, I'd say that's a far better starting point.  The half swings are good, too:  that's what I got on my first individual lesson, and a week later, I went back and was hitting reasonably reliable full shots.

I would think just the opposite.  Grip, posture and stance ARE fundamentals.  I remember reading how Jack Nicklaus would go to Jack Grout before the season began and basically say, :Mr. Grout, I'm taking up golf.  Please show me how."  And Grout would start with exactly these fundamentals - grip, address position, etc.

When starting with a new golfer who does not have existing bad habits and an ingrained swing pattern I think that getting good sound fundamentals before bad habits and swing pattern get ingrained is the best thing a pro can do.

[JetFan1983]

I've always had a lot of respect for this Sandtrap article from 2009.

[Shindig]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I would think just the opposite.  Grip, posture and stance ARE fundamentals.  I remember reading how Jack Nicklaus would go to Jack Grout before the season began and basically say, :Mr. Grout, I'm taking up golf.  Please show me how."  And Grout would start with exactly these fundamentals - grip, address position, etc.

When starting with a new golfer who does not have existing bad habits and an ingrained swing pattern I think that getting good sound fundamentals before bad habits and swing pattern get ingrained is the best thing a pro can do.

Grip, posture, and stance are more preferences than fundamentals.  Sure, every great player (and most bad players) grips the club from the same end, but the way they lay hands on the grip are different.  Similar with posture and stance.

You can use an adjustment to the grip once the swing is clear, to help narrow a shot cone (or possibly change the direction).  But getting married to a grip early on and trying to get the swing to match it is doing things in the wrong order.  As long as he's not doing something extremely wrong, like a hockey grip, he should be fine.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Shindig

Grip, posture, and stance are more preferences than fundamentals.  Sure, every great player (and most bad players) grips the club from the same end, but the way they lay hands on the grip are different.  Similar with posture and stance.

Well said! The number one fundamental is hitting the ground after hitting the ball. Changing someone's grip, alignment, posture during the first lesson is always a big gamble unless they are way off and their poor ball striking is directly linked to them. It's very rarely the case unless they are a complete beginner.

My first lesson is nearly always a short chip shot to explain to the student the importance of solid contact. 99.9% of golfers flip the club prior to impact, resulting in the full spectrum of mishits. If I have to make changes to their grip, alignment etc. I throw them in casually as if not important so they don't feel they have a lot of things to think about i.e. "turn your left hand a little bit more to the left or aim a bit more to the right.....now maintain your right wrist angle through impact". My goal is for them to see the golf swing as a long chip shot. I know it sounds crazy, but it really helps students get a feel for what they are trying to achieve. This eliminates flipping and releasing the right hand over the left (for right handers).

From experience, I've noticed students will have great diffculty hitting the ball better if you only change their grip, alignment, stance etc and it's very easy to lose them during the first lesson. If in the first lesson you can get them to hit the ball more solidly, you've got them on your side.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Very few golfers improve.

Very few take lessons.

And of those who do, even fewer take lessons from good instructors. And of those who do, even fewer put in any time and effort after the lesson to continue to work on things.

You're very much against instruction as a means of getting better, but you lack perspective (and facts).

FWIW, every single golfer to whom we gave instruction at our academy last year who worked even a little bit at it improved. They had to - the information was correct, they understood it, and they were able to implement the change(s) requested.

This includes one fellow who spent two months with us after spending two months with David Leadbetter. He got much better after the former, despite not improving after the latter.

Originally Posted by turtleback

And Grout would start with exactly these fundamentals - grip, address position, etc.

We taught beginners last year. Four days, three hours per day. How much time did we spend on grip, alignment, posture, and stance? Quite literally... ten minutes. Everyone got a basic introduction and we tweaked a few people who were way out of whack.

Everyone was hitting the ball first, getting the ball in the air, and drawing the golf ball at the end. They could also chip and putt reasonably well.

Grip and posture and alignment are important, but in the majority of cases, there are several things that are far more important to fix first.

[nleary9201]

Hi Erik,  I'm not against instruction in general. I just disagree with most golf instruction from the golf establishment over the years.  I don't know what general approach you teach in your clinics but I'm glad your students are improving. I just think that statistically most don't improve over time. The average score is still around 100.  Yes, some new courses are longer and more difficult but alot of courses (like the one I play) hasn't changed in 40 years.  If you don't teach the standard way, then at some point you must have been disenamered with the standard way of teaching too.  I think from what I've read that you are a proponent of stack and tilt.  I think that method makes sense but it isn't traditional.  Maybe it works because it isn't traditional,

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Hi Erik,  I'm not against instruction in general. I just disagree with most golf instruction from the golf establishment over the years.

IIRC, you've never taken any instruction. So knock it off. The stats I gave above don't demonstrate a fault with instruction, they demonstrate a fault with golfers not taking instruction and not following the recommendations of their instructors .

Originally Posted by nleary9201

I just think that statistically most don't improve over time.

You keep posting the same thing. Read my response above. C'mon...

[tanktwo2]

As long as you are getting a lesson from a PGA professional or someone recommended to you by an experienced good player you shouldn't need to ask anything.

The best advice I can give you is just be quiet, listen, and do exactly what they tell you.  After you hit a few shots, the teacher will know exactly how to mold you and teach you the fundamentals of a good swing.

As Hank Haney was constantly saying to Rush, and Ray Romano during the Haney Project TV show, just shut up, listen, and do EXACTLY what they tell you.  Most teachers have seen countless swings and swing flaws and they will know how to get you on the path to a fundamentally sound golf swing.

[tanktwo2]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I would think just the opposite.  Grip, posture and stance ARE fundamentals.  I remember reading how Jack Nicklaus would go to Jack Grout before the season began and basically say, :Mr. Grout, I'm taking up golf.  Please show me how."  And Grout would start with exactly these fundamentals - grip, address position, etc.

When starting with a new golfer who does not have existing bad habits and an ingrained swing pattern I think that getting good sound fundamentals before bad habits and swing pattern get ingrained is the best thing a pro can do.

I disagree, Grip, posture, and stance are important, but not fundamentals of a golf swing.  Fundamentals of a golf swing are more like having a FLAT left wrist at impact, having your body rotating the club, not the arms, and having a square clubface at impact.

Look at Jim Furyk; All kinds of things go on during his swing but he has a flat left wrist at impact and probably the most square clubface at impact on tour

[MiniBlueDragon]

To be fair, even a flat wrist, body rotating the club and club face square at impact aren't "fundamental" to the golf swing as all of them differ between golfers.

A "fundamental" is in essence a commonality between ALL great golfers:

1. Hitting the ground in the same spot every time.
2. Having enough power to play the course.
3. Matching club face to swing path to control shot type.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tanktwo2

As long as you are getting a lesson from a PGA professional or someone recommended to you by an experienced good player you shouldn't need to ask anything.

The best advice I can give you is just be quiet, listen, and do exactly what they tell you.  After you hit a few shots, the teacher will know exactly how to mold you and teach you the fundamentals of a good swing.

The problem with that is that a lot of instructors might be certified by some group or another (PGA, USGTF, whatever) but really not know much. The PGA doesn't train you to teach nearly as much as I wish it would.

And we like it when students ask questions. Why wouldn't we? Asking questions is fine. Occasionally we've had to say "that's not a problem, don't worry about it, just work on what I'm telling you" but we'll never refuse to answer a good question, and most of the time, a bad one. ;-)

Students should buy into what their teacher is explaining. Maybe if Hank had explained WHAT he was doing, his students would have had more success. Rush hit the board a thousand times... and Haney never seemed to explain to him how NOT to hit the board.

[nevets88]

Originally Posted by iacas

The problem with that is that a lot of instructors might be certified by some group or another (PGA, USGTF, whatever) but really not know much. The PGA doesn't train you to teach nearly as much as I wish it would.

And we like it when students ask questions. Why wouldn't we? Asking questions is fine. Occasionally we've had to say "that's not a problem, don't worry about it, just work on what I'm telling you" but we'll never refuse to answer a good question, and most of the time, a bad one. ;-)

Students should buy into what their teacher is explaining. Maybe if Hank had explained WHAT he was doing, his students would have had more success. Rush hit the board a thousand times... and Haney never seemed to explain to him how NOT to hit the board.

I took lessons and practiced what I was taught and never progressed as much as I would have liked - maybe I had bad luck. Maybe it's just me, but none of my teachers were as effective as the Stack and Tilt pro I took lessons from. And some of the teachers I took lessons from were PGA certified, on Golf Channel and or ranked in Golf Digest. Granted, I'm not athletically gifted and I think I started really to understand the swing (for me) only in the past couple of years.

As for asking questions, I probably peppered every pro I took lessons from a little too much, but I'm trying to figure things out and I find the more questions you ask, the more easily you figure out whether that pro is right for you so my MO is bombs away with the questions. Every lesson I take I always have a laundry list of questions, but that's just me.

I remember one pro, I pointed out, hey, I've got a little chicken wing there and he said it wasn't important. Maybe he was trying to simplify things too much.