Swing techniques and the endless mumbo jumbo

[rossvanwyk]

Hey all

So, this is going to be a bit of a frustrated ramble I guess. So my apologies, but I wanted to see if I am the only one who feels this way or not.

So I've just been checking out some golfing vids on youtube, as I'm sure we all do cos I like to look for interesting things or tips I like to try out. And I eventually got around to checking out what Stack and Tilt is as I never bothered to get into it before but i've heard so much about it. And I guess I'm just frustrated about how hard a lot of people try to make this game.

That being said, this game is hard. very hard. And the golf swing is very technical. However. I am a firm believer that whatever works for someone, works. There is no 100% way to swing a golf club and be consistent. So many people have such different types of swings and grips etc and if you are consistent with that swing, I guess that's all there is to it.

I think this post is kinda directed more at the average to decent golfer. If you're a pro then I understand they get a lot more technical about things and get down  to the nitty gritty video footage and analysing every tiny movement. but I really think for the average golfer, this really isn't helpful. You are making things way too hard.

If you are really struggling to make decent contact at all and you have no idea where your next shot is going and you're hitting fat, thin, slices etc. Then I definitely think there are concrete fundamentals you can take to heart and think about. These will definitely aid you in getting the ball airborn and improve your ball striking.

But I'll speak about myself for example. I am down to a 10 HC and feel I am playing very decent golf for my HC. I am hoping to come down to a decent 6. I've never had a lesson before in my life. I have watched a lot of videos and taken a few things out of them but I've never gotten overly technical. I firmly believe in working on your swing and getting a feel for what it is to strike cleanly and to get that muscle memory going. I watch these S&T videos and people are trying to stack the shoulders over the hips here and keep the weight there etc etc. And there are way worse vids than S&T with reels and reels of points in your swing you are supposed to be aware of. Moving the hips here and your weight must be 70/30 to the frontside here then form this shape with the hinge of your wrists and begin the downswing this way etc etc. I honestly don't believe this helps one bit.

I don't even know why I'm posting this right now to be honest. I guess it's just bothered me for a while now. This game is too awesome for words but I believe a lot of people get way too tangled up in the technicalities to even make it fun. You obviously need to practice. A lot. And get a feel for your swing and work on the basics to get it working for you. Not to get it the same as everybody else's...

You don't have to match the cookie cutter swing at every point in your swing path to believe that you're doing the right thing. If I'm wrong, then i guess my hopes of continuing to improve my game are very slim.

I just wanted to say practice, find a swing that's working for you and believe in that swing, and let your body remember that swing and it will be consistent and you'll play great golf. If you're struggling with this game, I think those are the things you should be thinking about instead of a 15 point list when you're trying to strike that little ball.

The abbreviated version

I am annoyed at the endless vids where people/instructors try to make this game harder than it is with their 15 point swing checklists and I think they make a lot of people believe they are doing things wrong if they haven't video'd their swing and are matching each and every point to the degree.

I love golf. Stick to the absolute basics until you have a good swing then practice it and it will work for you.

If this post makes no sense or you utterly disagree, you are 100% entitled to disagree. And tell me so. I just wanted to say my piece on the subject.

:)

Take care folks!

Ross

[Harmonious]

Great post!  I think you describe what many golfers feel at one time or another.  How can there be so many ways to swing the club !?!?  I'll just offer a couple of thoughts as one who has been exactly where you are now.

Years ago, I played golf without a clue about technique, swing thoughts, etc.  Just out there to have a good time. Didn't practice. Didn't care. Maybe because of athletic ability (past baseball player) I could hack it around in the high 80's/low 90's and, on a good day, get down to an 85. Sounds like about where you are now.

About 15 years ago, I decided to get more serious about the game, so I went to a one-week golf school in Arizona.  It was a real eye-opener.  Aside from the obvious technical flaws, the instructors showed me some of the things that lead to lower scores, like short game shots, course management, how to play from different lies.  All the things that make one a "golfer".  They didn't try to brainwash me into accepting any one swing philosophy, they just worked with what I had, showed the fundamentals, and let it go at that.

Since that time, I've tried different things to make improvements, settling on a couple of ideas and/or teachers that I like.  The handicap has dropped little by little every year.  Having more time to practice and play has certainly helped, but I think it was the decision years ago that I wanted to get serious about the game that led to the improvement.

Getting back to your original question: You are exactly right.  Find what works for you.  Experiment with a number of ideas, you'll know which ones to accept and which to reject.  Then, once you find it, don't get distracted by all the "white noise" that passes for golf instruction, whether in magazines or on the internet.  You'll be way ahead of the game.    Good luck.

[rossvanwyk]

Cheers for the reply harmonious. I agree with your sentiments.

And I actually take golf quite seriously in terms of wanting to improve. I'm starting to shoot 77's and 78's now and I play and practice as much as possible. I totally agree on working on things such as short game, putting and general course management and approach to your game and shooting better scores. I have worked on my swing from a point of having a horrible slice with inconsistent contact to where I can now crunch my irons consistently. Irons are definitely my strongest point and have no problem hitting long irons. Working on getting that driver more accurate now :)

I guess my initial post was aimed more to the mid 90 shooter who duffs/mishits every 3rd or 4th shot.

And I am also in no way saying going for lessons is a bad idea. I will probably go for a few myself to see what I can get out of it.

But yeah, I think the post speaks for itself. If you are hitting consistently and your game is improving, then you're doing it right.

take care man.

[MiniBlueDragon]

If one "pro" or video says "keep your weight stacked on the back swing" and another pro or video says "allow your weight to go back fractionally on the back swing" then I'd assume that most duffers will try one method, see if it works for them and if not try the other method.

More videos means more options.

More swing technicalities means more understanding on what that part of the swing is doing which gives the duffer more information on how they can swing their club better themselves.

Even methods like the Perfect Swing or Stack & Tilt which advocate a certain combination of things don't *have* to be used in their entirety so there's no big deal in them.

I have a primarily S&T swing myself because it feels the most natural to me (and because I have lordosis of the back which makes a traditional swing painful when exerting too much) but I'm always watching videos, reading books, reading forums and thinking about things that may help my swing more.

As you said; swing the club in the manner that feels best to you.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by rossvanwyk

I just wanted to say practice, find a swing that's working for you and believe in that swing, and let your body remember that swing and it will be consistent and you'll play great golf.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but at the same time, disagree as well.

The average golfer can't just "practice, find a swing that's working, and believe in it...".

And it's more enjoyable to shoot 72 than 92.

[Sai-Jin]

Erik,

What do you mean the average golfer can't do so?

You mean they can't just find a swing even by watching tutorial vids on youtube, etc?

I consider myself an average golfer, and I never had a teacher. I find my own stance, ball positioning, back / down swing, etc by watching youtube vids

and testing them out to my fill my needs.

So imho if someone wants to be good , bad enough, they can get there.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

Erik,

What do you mean the average golfer can't do so?

You mean they can't just find a swing even by watching tutorial vids on youtube, etc?

I consider myself an average golfer, and I never had a teacher. I find my own stance, ball positioning, back / down swing, etc by watching youtube vids

and testing them out to my fill my needs.

So imho if someone wants to be good , bad enough, they can get there.

Many people will never get good just by trying over and over.  Many are likely to improve with instruction, and, well, some people probably just won't ever get anywhere.  Even if you are motivated and naturally coordinated enough to improve through self-instruction (with or without books/videos/etc), it's a fairly certain truth that you will improve more quickly with a good instructor.  But that, really, is a separate issue.

With respect to the original topic, there's mumbo jumbo, and then there's the simple need to have a way to explain a technique in such a way that a reader can understand the important elements.  Also, different players use different techniques, and even those who use the same or similar techniques notice or experience different feelings during their swings.  So, of course different videos will give different, and sometimes conflicting, instruction.  The swings are different!

But, this is why an instructor can help.  If he's good and experienced, he can tailor a swing to your natural tendencies and abilities and, hopefully, save you the trouble of wading through the endless different ways you can hit a golf ball.

[rossvanwyk]

I agree with the responses. Zeg I like how you say a good instructor can tailor your swing around your natural tendencies and abilities.

I just think sometimes people can get crushed by the insane amounts of tutorials out there that seem to make the golf swing as hard as humanly possible by putting endless checkpoints throughout your swing and positions that you need to be checking throughout and I just don't think it has to be this way.

I think i should have put in a disclaimer that I generally believe someone needs to have a little bit of given talent or feel for the game. That way you can work on your own swing and see results as the ball goes where you want it to go consistently. I mean thats what we would hope an instructor would help us do anyway?

But again I will reiiterate that I believe in instruction and it does help, no question. I agree iacas, that shooting 72 is better than 92 and a lot more fun. But I do believe I can get down to shooting 72 without molding my swing to some crazy checklist. That's all i meant really :)

But a good instructor can definitely look at the swing you already have and point out where you could do better etc. No question.

I still believe an average golfer can find their swing, practice and get to a decent point. By average I mean someone with a tendency toward the game and a decent swing already. I consider myself average. A 10 HC is average. But i know I can slice my HC in half just by practicing. And the shots I leave out on the course are almost always putts anyway.

Maybe I need a putting instructor..... :)

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by rossvanwyk

I love golf. Stick to the absolute basics until you have a good swing then practice it and it will work for you.

If this post makes no sense or you utterly disagree, you are 100% entitled to disagree. And tell me so. I just wanted to say my piece on the subject.

You got some good points, but I don't agree on the general theory of your post. I agree that the information available can be overwhelming and that using random internet tips may not help. However, most golfers that don't take instruction or try to work out some stuff themselves will have trouble with getting better. I got to a certain point where I couldn't get better without instruction or trying to figure it out myself. Some get to handicap 25, some to 10. Not everyone can just get a good swing by playing golf and hitting balls the range.

Golf is difficult and very individual. You can't teach feel, it has to be experienced. Things can get too technical, but that's something each player has to regulate, finding the right path. The best way is by professional instruction, but most don't ever try it.

I'm happy with being a handicap 11, but I want to get down to scratch, and I definitely won't get there without working on my swing. Actually, I care more about my ballstriking than my scoring. Ballstriking is the hardest thing in golf, if I can get consistency there, the next steps to a low score are much easier. So I judge my round by how I hit the ball, not by my score.

If you can play golf at a level that you are happy with without instruction, filming your swing or using internet tips, great, but most people can't. And I think I can speak for everyone when I say that it is a lot more satisfying to hit the ball consistently than duffing the tee shot, topping the next and pullin the third into a water hazard. Most people don't even know how a good swing works, what makes out the foundation for a good strike on the ball. Not even the ball flight laws are commonly known.

Originally Posted by rossvanwyk

I still believe an average golfer can find their swing, practice and get to a decent point. By average I mean someone with a tendency toward the game and a decent swing already. I consider myself average. A 10 HC is average. But i know I can slice my HC in half just by practicing. And the shots I leave out on the course are almost always putts anyway.

Handicap 10 is not average.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

What do you mean the average golfer can't do so?

You mean they can't just find a swing even by watching tutorial vids on youtube, etc?

I consider myself an average golfer, and I never had a teacher. I find my own stance, ball positioning, back / down swing, etc by watching youtube vids

and testing them out to my fill my needs.

So imho if someone wants to be good , bad enough, they can get there.

With all due respect, because this game is tough, you're a 14. Odds are you won't "find a swing," no. And I'm certain that when you "try things out" you're not even doing them as accurately as you think you are.

If the destination is four hours away from you by car, would you be better off trying every random road you encounter until you finally get there, or would you rather have a GPS to guide you? Instructors - good ones - are like a GPS. Internet tips are a lot more like randomly trying every road you encounter to see if it gets you to the location.

[Harmonious]

Good points on both sides of this discussion.  All you have to do is look down the row at any driving range, and you can quickly classify the people into roughly two categories:  Those that: A) Have a pretty decent swing and/or have some athletic ability and, B) Those that don't have a clue and look like they have never done anything athletic in their lives.

I will put Ross in the A group based on his posts.  For those folks who can make an athletic move and consistently return the club to the ball, they may be able to reach a very high level of play without formal instruction.  Not saying they couldn't get better with an instructor, but it's very possible that they may reach the level they want just on their own through reading books, watching videos, becoming a "student" of the game.

However, for the B group, there really is no hope of becoming a "golfer" (provide your own definition) without someone showing them the fundamentals, like grip, posture, alignment, impact.  These are the "average" golfers that will never magically break 90 without some real assistance. And, even with competent instruction, they may never reach the level they seek, just because they can't physically do it.  Doesn't mean they can't get much better, however. But get down to single digits?  Very difficult.

Also, our own definition of "average" will change as our game changes.  Sure, the average handicap is about 18, but those are of people who actually have an official handicap.  That's a 95 shooter, more or less. I would suggest that, as we improve and our handicap drops, we also change our ideas of what "average" is.  Same as what our view of "low handicap" is. When I was a 15 handicap, I thought I was about average.  When I dropped below a 10, I looked back at how I played, and 15 seemed worse than average.  When I got under 5, and realized how much better I had become, 15 seemed another world away. It's all perception.

[The Recreational Golfer]

My swing is largely the result of my own efforts made after a teaching pro pointed me in the right direction.

I'm hitting the ball very well now, because of two tiny adjustments I made last year that no pro has ever mentioned to me. One I put in because I kept reading different golfers saying to do it, and the other I found quite by accident on my own, one that I have never read about, and probably would be good advice only to me. On the other hand, if I had not had a few lessons last year as well,  the pro pointing out glaring errors I had no idea I was making, my two little adjustments would be worthless.

I like to read golf instruction books to find out what this teacher or that has to say. It's good entertainment. But in the end, I have a good swing that works really well most of the time. I don't need a new one. I just need to learn how to make the good swing I already have, more often.

[rossvanwyk]

Very good points Harmonious. As well as iacas, i do agree with a lot of what you say.

I agree with the 2 general groups you can put people into. I guess for group B, instructors might be more of a necessity. But then again, its all relative. I believe its just as hard to go from a 24HC to shooting 85's as it is to go from a 10 to a 6 or from a 6 to a 3 or 4.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

With all due respect, because this game is tough, you're a 14. Odds are you won't "find a swing," no. And I'm certain that when you "try things out" you're not even doing them as accurately as you think you are.

If the destination is four hours away from you by car, would you be better off trying every random road you encounter until you finally get there, or would you rather have a GPS to guide you? Instructors - good ones - are like a GPS. Internet tips are a lot more like randomly trying every road you encounter to see if it gets you to the location.

I found your GPS comment interesting for a couple reasons. My first thought before a 4 hour trip (okay, afer toping up the fluids, check the weather report, and draining the bladder) is to grab a map. I've never owned a GPS.  Some people think of a GPS first and foremost. They may not even own a physical map. Different strokes for different folks.

Some people can read golf magazines and insctuction books and filter out the potentially damaging bits. They can intuitively piece together a pretty solid game. Their subsequent experiences on the course confirm they're on the right path. Experience also tells me that very few people are born with both the filter and intuition to go it alone.

In the post immediately following this one, Harmonious classifies golfers as type A or type B. Personally I consider myself an A who occasionally becomes a B to see if I'm still on track.

[sean_miller]

What happened to the edit button?

Originally Posted by sean_miller

* insctuction books

[kilbyman]

I think people get confused by info overload... BAD info overload.  Also, bad instruction as well.  My weight-shift less, shoulder powered, one plane swing is just not helped by the local pros who want to make my swing into a two-plane with a big shift behind the ball, arms lifted to the sky, compensating for going too open on the takeaway to an intended forearm roll-release thing that ends up with me feeling like I'm about to fall over. This isn't to say that instruction on my swing is bad... all of my helpful instruction has come from Stack and Tilt, Jim Hardy's Plane Truth, and golf-machine books, not from the local pros and golf digest tips.

[bullseye]

So can you imagine Fred couples trying to swing like Jim Furyk or  v/v how about both of them swinging like Ryan Moore.

[Kujan]

Just remember one thing: you have to tilt to stay stacked !