The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

No, this is wrong. He keeps a legit HC.

I've read that too.

Playing in the 80s from the equivalent of the ladies tees on a short course is not a 6 handicap in my book.

[Chris Stewart]

I've read that too. Playing in the 80s from the equivalent of the ladies tees on a short course is not a 6 handicap in my book.

How is that possible? If he's playing that short, wouldn't that put the CR at ~65/66? So shooting low 80s wouldn't give you a 6 hcp. Right, or am I missing something?

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by Chris Stewart

How is that possible? If he's playing that short, wouldn't that put the CR at ~65/66? So shooting low 80s wouldn't give you a 6 hcp. Right, or am I missing something?

I grill Dan on this all the time, but he is picking and choosing now when he wants to play for handicap and when he wants to play for practice. (I don't like where that is going...)

I don't believe he could sniff a 6 handicap in a tournament situation. Fortunately, we will get to see that here soon as he is playing a 36 hole event. (his tournament scores have him closer to a 12)

But again, who cares... no comment on him hitting 350,000 balls and being wherever he is? What does it mean the someone could devote this much time, effort and money into golf and not be able to beat some of the guys in your foursome?

[newtogolf]

It means you have to have some natural talent and ability to play professional level golf and as of right now it doesn't appear Dan has it.

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

I grill Dan on this all the time, but he is picking and choosing now when he wants to play for handicap and when he wants to play for practice?

I don't believe he could sniff a 6 handicap in a tournament situation. Fortunately, we will get to see that here soon as he is playing a 36 hole event. (his tournament scores have him closer to a 12)

But again, who cares... no comment on him hitting 350,000 balls and being wherever he is? What does it mean the someone could devote this much time, effort and money into golf and not be able to beat some of the guys in your foursome?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

I grill Dan on this all the time, but he is picking and choosing now when he wants to play for handicap and when he wants to play for practice. (I don't like where that is going...)

There you go then.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Chris Stewart

How is that possible? If he's playing that short, wouldn't that put the CR at ~65/66? So shooting low 80s wouldn't give you a 6 hcp. Right, or am I missing something?

I'm sure you aren't, but Dan pretty obviously is.

[LovinItAll]

It's one thing to express an opinion about another's goals, ambitions, et al. It's an entirely different thing to bring another man's honesty and integrity into question, especially when there are facts that buttress his statistics.

Here are Dan's rounds used to compute his current HC:

So, User=Shorty, Dan isn't sporting a vanity HC. He has so many eyes on him that it would be difficult for him to fudge. He's been given a free membership at Columbia Edgewater, and I'm pretty sure they'd revoke that if they felt Dan's character was flawed re: reporting his peer-reviewed scores. Also, note the tournament scores posted above. Dan had a camera crew following him during one of the tournaments, so calculate the added pressure from that. In April, his HC was 8.7, so the 10.1 definitely 'sniffed' his index and the 13.6 was certainly respectable. Don't know what Erik's index was when he took the PAT, but considering that Erik wrote this:

'We played tees that rated out to 69.7, so the target score was 154 - a pair of 77s. You know how golfers tend to shoot the same score regardless of the tees they play? Yeah, so the course rating being lower doesn't really help. '

...I'd say Dan had a pretty good showing relative to his handicap in both tourney rounds.

Also user=Shorty, where does this:

"Playing in the 80s from the equivalent of the ladies tees on a short course is not a 6 handicap in my book."

...come from? Do you have some sort of facts that back that up, or are you just wildly speculating based on something you heard from who knows what source?

And these tidbits from user=Williamvani:

"I grill Dan on this all the time, but he is picking and choosing now when he wants to play for handicap and when he wants to play for practice. (I don't like where that is going...)"

Dan isn't exactly picking and choosing what scores to post. From his blog:

"It is time to start registering rounds towards the handicap again, too. When I got the new clubs I decided to take two weeks off of keeping score to work on the clubs and new swing mechanics rather than falling back to my old habits. This is an important part of the plan, you shouldn’t always play for score, sometimes you need to go out and drop multiple balls at different locations and experiment with new things. I’ve been doing that and have had a couple of “ah-ha” moments and am ready to get right back in the scoring saddle."

Deciding not to post scores - good or bad - for a given period  (two weeks in this case) isn't the same as doctoring one's HC. I think every round played should be posted, but they have to be 'postable' rounds. IMO, Experimenting with new clubs for two weeks is perfectly reasonable, especially given the amount of golf Dan plays.

You also say this:

"...his tournament scores have him closer to a 12." -and- "I don't believe he could sniff a 6 handicap in a tournament situation."

As mentioned, Dan was an 8.7 when he posted tournament scores that rated to 10.1 and 13.6.

Players are only expected to shoot their HC ~1 in 5 rounds, so for 80% of a player's rounds, they are expected to shoot higher than their handicap. Throw in tournament conditions and you're right, he probably won't shoot his HC - he isn't supposed to and would actually be considered a sandbagger if his score were even marginally better than his HC.

Comments like these:

"...no comment on him hitting 350,000 balls and being wherever he is? What does it mean the someone could devote this much time, effort and money into golf and not be able to beat some of the guys in your foursome?"

...are totally legitimate. They're opinions.

I know this:

- Dude saved a hundred grand by the time he was 30

- He's undertaking a well documented effort to address a theory formulated by someone else

- He was, by the account of his coach, willing to practice in driving rain for hours to stay on track of his stated goal

I give him mad props for the effort. Aside from free clubs and a free golf club membership, he's financing everything himself. What he definitely isn't is a TST poster saying, "I'll Be A Pro Soon!" and then presenting some haphazard plan for becoming one.

How does anyone in good conscience knock a guy like Dan? Whether you think he'll succeed is one thing, but to assasinate his character by calling him a cheater/liar? That's poor.

[Chris Stewart]

Thanks for posting his HCP info, definitely looks legit from a CR/slope perspective. I wish he used the actual date he played so you could see how often he was posting round. I've been following Dan for awhile as well and really think what he's doing is awesome. I wish him the best and hope he proves the critics wrong.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Chris Stewart

Thanks for posting his HCP info, definitely looks legit from a CR/slope perspective. I wish he used the actual date he played so you could see how often he was posting round.

The dates are always homogenized like that when you look up someone's handicap by name. I believe they changed to that system a few years ago after privacy concerns were expressed. (Don't want your boss seeing a round posted on the day you called in sick, now do ya?)  If you look up by GHIN number, the actual dates would show. Not sure if Dan's GHIN is public knowledge...

[Williamevanl]

*Lovinitall, while your posts have been very good in this thread I'm not sure you understand the point that I am making.

btw, Dan:

"Any time I am playing these rounds I will also determine beforehand if it’s an on-course practice round (important to have rounds where you drop multiple balls from different locations and to learn shots) or a scoring round."

This happened four months after his handicap hadn't changed at all until the end where it went up .1 points. He referred to this time as a 'plan shift'.  Here's what happened to his handicap following this:

He is certainly picking and choosing  prior (he says) to playing if he is going to play for real or handicap. Given the pressure on him to show continual improvement I worry how far he will take this culling the best scores. My guess is that at minimum he is playing for score until the round goes to crap and then he is 'playing for practice' think triple on the first hole...

You responded to his ability to shoot near his handicap of 8.7 for the last couple of tournaments, he was able to do that. I think though as he finds ways to bring down his handicap, (like not recording scores when he is playing bad or doesn't feel like he will play well) that he won't be able to shoot near this new handicap.

Most importantly though, I like Dan, I've read every single blog, watched every video, read every tweet, interview, article etc... I love the project! This doesn't mean though that I think he will be successful. I've argued with Dan from the beginning about how this would play out and so far I have been right on target. I think this is great info for people out there that think they are going to just start putting in tons of hours after work and get really good at golf. I'll forever be able to cite Dan and his project when these arguments come up. (which is why I really hope he keeps this legit) I'm not being critical of Dan, I'm being critical of this idea that practice will continually improve your performance as a golfer.

My last prediction, is that Dan is going to start getting worse over the next couple of weeks/months. I expect him around a 7 soon.

[LovinItAll]

*Lovinitall, while your posts have been very good in this thread I'm not sure you understand the point that I am making. btw, Dan:  "Any time I am playing these rounds I will also determine beforehand if it’s an on-course practice round (important to have rounds where you drop multiple balls from different locations and to learn shots) or a scoring round. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/57729/] [/URL] He is certainly picking and choosing  prior (he says) to playing if he is going to play for real or handicap. Given the pressure on him to show continual improvement I worry how far he will take this culling the best scores. My guess is that at minimum he is playing for score until the round goes to crap and then he is 'playing for practice' think triple on the first hole... You responded to his ability to shoot near his handicap of 8.7 for the last couple of tournaments, he was able to do that. I think though as he finds ways to bring down his handicap, (like not recording scores when he is playing bad or doesn't feel like he will play well) that he won't be able to shoot near this new handicap. Most importantly though, I like Dan, I've read every single blog, watched every video, read every tweet, interview, article etc... I love the project! This doesn't mean though that I think he will be successful.

You're right. I remember reading the 'playing for practice/score' now that you mention it, and I think that's wrong. Just post - the worst 10 are going to be dropped anyway. I hope he's not dropping enough rounds to create a vanity cap, but I guess only he knows for sure. As you said, it will be apparent when he has a good sampling of tournament scores. Anything fewer than, IDK, ten or so will be hard to draw any conclusions from. I really don't think he's dishonest in the way many have made him out to be, though. Like you, I've read almost everything he's written, watched the vcasts, etc. I, too, like the project. I've withheld making any predictions other than I think he'll reach 'expert' status if one considers a plus handicap 'expert'. Top 200 or a spot even on the Buy.com tour? Man, that's a tall order. Even one of his stated goals of entering into and making the cut in a PGA event seems really unlikely. I do hope he can tough out the whole project. The whole 10,000 hour thing is interesting, and it doesn't really seem as if Dan has any natural predilection for the game, or at least I think it's fair to say that he hasn't demonstrated any unusual talent so far. To me, that's what makes the 10,000 hour deal more worth watching than if he seemed have more 'talent'. I think BuckeyeNut said something like, 'Sure seems like he should be better than he is.' I think there are a WHOLE BUNCH of recreational golfers that got better, faster. It's really the improvement from this point forward that, to me, is worth watching. Take care, and the best to everyone.

[onesome]

If hes making the decision before he hits his tee shot on the first hole that this is either a practce round or a score he will post I don't see the problem, but if that decision happens at the fifth or sixth hole then there is a real problem,hes now playing at below a course handicap of 9 wich means ESC will not allow him to post a score higher than 2 over on any one hole,though if hes hitting 8's and 9's at least three or four times half of his rounds then hes in a pinch. Honestly I only have seen him swing a club a few times but TBH I really was not that impressed if he hasn't hit the wall by now he is definitely within sight of it. I think the point of realizing Dan's fortitude and focus and all out determination is upon him, the next 6 months to a year will tell us alot.

[Williamevanl]

Well the results of his first two day tournament are in:

He was 25 shots over par over the course of 2 days with a +9, 81 the first day and a +16, 88 the second day.

Not sure what tees they played from but:

Whites 69.3/115

Blues 71.0/124

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

Well the results of his first two day tournament are in:

He was 25 shots over par over the course of 2 days with a +9, 81 the first day and a +16, 88 the second day.

Not sure what tees they played from but:

Whites 69.3/115

Blues 71.0/124

Tournament golf is a different animal all together.  For any amateur golfer who has yet to play in a tournament setting.  Especially one that is ran by a USGA/local governing body... You should do it.  It is not only fun... But it really shows what your game is made of - as pressure you didn't know existed will find a way to creep into your body.

I'd love to hear what Danimal had to say about his first tournament experience.

[LovinItAll]

Tournament golf is a different animal all together.  For any amateur golfer who has yet to play in a tournament setting.  Especially one that is ran by a USGA/local governing body... You should do it.  It is not only fun... But it really shows what your game is made of - as pressure you didn't know existed will find a way to creep into your body. I'd love to hear what Danimal had to say about his first tournament experience.

He has his experience written in his blog. Aside from the front 9 on the second day, he didn't play poorly: 41,40,46,40 I think that's respectable.

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

He has his experience written in his blog. Aside from the front 9 on the second day, he didn't play poorly:

41,40,46,40

I think that's respectable.

I'm not sure what we are comparing him to, see the thing about this is that it is exactly what we expect if all of this practice is no longer helping him much. Those scores look identical to my company league scores with the exception of the typical winning score in the 30's. These are guys that don't practice at all AND Dan has hit 350,000 balls and practices golf as a full time job going into year 3 now!

Also, when Dan started this thing there were like half a dozen other guys doing the same. My favorite was probably the My Green Jacket guy, his project ended with a good quote (Guy was shooting low 40's in no time (because that is exactly what happens to everyone that puts in any amount off effort) but then 2 years later... Still shoots in the low 40's on average, this seems to happen to just about everyone that really 'goes after it'.

"But after 250 rounds? And weeks on the range, with topdrawer coaching? All that visualisation? Yes, I improved a lot. But then you meet some boytjie who never practises and slams it around to a score in the mid-70s once a week.
That is called sporting ability. Talent. You need that stuff.
And that’s where I really start to feel ill. Because if I had ability like
that and worked as hard as I did, I’d be in plus figures by now."

LovinitAll, do you think that Dan is on pace and about where he should be with the amount off effort and time that he has put in? If you quit your job and practiced nearly every day for years, would +9 and + 16 be acceptable to you? I also think that I was spot on with him playing to his hadicap, I believe Dan would have needed to shoot a 75 to shoot his handicap from the whites and a 77 from the tips. (I know you only shoot your handi 25% but just saying not even close here) I'm told the USGA will ban you from qualifying tournaments if you claim to have a 2-3 handicap and shoot > 10 strokes over the course rating, which Dan did both days. Perhaps as much as 19 strokes over on the second day if they were playing the whites. 19 strokes over the course rating is not acceptable for a golfer with a handicap of 5.9.

[Goat Green]

Wow.

There certainly are a lot of people in this thread, washing down their Hater Tots with some Hater-ade.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

Wow.

There certainly are a lot of people in this thread, washing down their Hater Tots with some Hater-ade.

It's not hate, it's skepticism.  It's the reality that it takes more than just practice and dedication to reach the level of the pros.