The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[Nosevi]

My frustration with Dan is that in my opinion he is not honest. He avoids the real questions and skirts around things to paint himself in the best possible light without ever backing himself up. Saying he is "holding his own" in some tournaments but not actually saying how he went, for example. Saying that he see no reason why +5 or +6 is not possible.  I could say he is a fool, but he is delusional, not stupid.

 

As for the second part, 1 in a 1000? Why not 1 in 100 million? He just doesn't have it. Full stop. He could sleep in Jack Nicklaus's spare room and he'd still have zero chance of achieving his goal. Imagine if the goal was final 16 in the US Amateur. That is laughable, yet people think the "plan" (which is a thousand times more idiotic)  is on track. It's a complete joke.

The competition is fit young guys whose games have everything and who shoot low 60s and still get smoked. Where does a person in their 30s fit? It could be the fourth tier in Europe or Asia. It's simply not happening for anyone.

Fourth tier sounds about right to me, Shorty which is why I think trying for the third tier down from the European Tour (ie Europro, Sunshine Tour, Alps Tour etc) is 'shooting for the stars'. I've seen how good guys who play at this level are, they often get there having been amateurs playing off about plus 4 or even plus 5. I played 9 holes of matchplay with a guy who plays off plus 4.6 two days ago and got well and truly thrashed as he shot 5 birdies in 9 holes from the 'tips' on a course with CR 73. I think tier 3 in Europe is an outside possibility for someone to achieve later in life but even that's a stretch. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Nosevi

[Lihu]

The simple fact that this thread has gone on for 215 pages of mostly heated discussion has proven that Dan's publicity campaign has worked. Nosevi's more realistic plan has only garnered 22 pages of attention since February. Much of those pages have been long posts of charts occupying most of the pages. Over four years at that rate would amount to just around 100 pages if that.

Human interest stories generate more volume than hard work.

I got chased out of that thread by some ugly British talk. . .

Yeah, it might be more realistic, but still extremely difficult. As I read through more of the talent code more, I realized that it applies mostly to young children. Makes sense, though. It also makes sense that most golfers who make it big are already hopefuls by 13.

 

Fourth tier sounds about right to me, Shorty which is why I think trying for the third tier down from the European Tour (ie Europro, Sunshine Tour, Alps Tour etc) is 'shooting for the stars'. I've seen how good guys who play at this level are, they often get there having been amateurs playing off about plus 4 or even plus 5. I played 9 holes of matchplay with a guy who plays off plus 4.6 two days ago and got well and truly thrashed as he shot 5 birdies in 9 holes from the 'tips' on a course with CR 73. I think tier 3 in Europe is an outside possibility for someone to achieve later in life but even that's a stretch. 

I've also watched pros play casual rounds, and on a few holes can imagine a scratch holding his own against a pro.

However, golf is about statistics at that level. There are probably more than 50,000 plus handicap golfers around the world all capable of holding their own against a pro for one round. Can all of them play at that level as consistently as a pro for many rounds? No. Otherwise, they would mostly be pros.

 

 

[Nosevi]

I got chased out of that thread by some ugly British talk. . .

Yeah, it might be more realistic, but still extremely difficult. As I read through more of the talent code more, I realized that it applies mostly to young children. Makes sense, though. It also makes sense that most golfers who make it big are already hopefuls by 13.

 

I've also watched pros play casual rounds, and on a few holes can imagine a scratch holding his own against a pro.

However, golf is about statistics at that level. There are probably more than 50,000 plus handicap golfers around the world all capable of holding their own against a pro for one round. Can all of them play at that level as consistently as a pro for many rounds? No. Otherwise, they would mostly be pros.

 

 

Regarding being 'chased out' I'd just like to pount out to any that read this thread but don't read that thread that it was in no way by me.

Regarding the second part, totally agree. The guy I was playing with who plays off plus 4.6 and shot 10 under the course rating the day before is looking to make the STEP UP to the European Tour. I've also played with guys who have played on the European Tour. Until you actually go toe to toe, off the same tee on the same course, at the same time with guys like that you won't know just how good they are. That's not aimed at you Lihu  it's aimed at what I see as a bit of a blind spot in the Dan Plan - knowing exactly what your target is in real, performance related terms.

[Lihu]

Regarding the second part, totally agree. The guy I was playing with who plays off plus 4.6 and shot 10 under the course rating the day before is looking to make the STEP UP to the European Tour. I've also played with guys who have played on the European Tour. Until you actually go toe to toe, off the same tee on the same course, at the same time with guys like that you won't know just how good they are. That's not aimed at you Lihu  it's aimed at what I see as a bit of a blind spot in the Dan Plan - knowing exactly what your target is in real, performance related terms.

Not even necessary to write! I've never even considered going toe to toe against a pro player at any level even if given 20 strokes!

[Pretzel]

Regarding being 'chased out' I'd just like to pount out to any that read this thread but don't read that thread that it was in no way by me.

Regarding the second part, totally agree. The guy I was playing with who plays off plus 4.6 and shot 10 under the course rating the day before is looking to make the STEP UP to the European Tour. I've also played with guys who have played on the European Tour. Until you actually go toe to toe, off the same tee on the same course, at the same time with guys like that you won't know just how good they are. That's not aimed at you Lihu  it's aimed at what I see as a bit of a blind spot in the Dan Plan - knowing exactly what your target is in real, performance related terms.

The funny thing about this is that he played in the pro-am at Pebble Beach. He should be wiser than he is in that regard.

[Nosevi]

Not even necessary to write! I've never even considered going toe to toe against a pro player at any level even if given 20 strokes!

We just all play off scratch ......... and I lose. But I don't lose quite as abysmally as I used to  The point is Dan's trying to close the gap between himself and a pro down to zero. To do that he needs to know what he's aiming at.

The funny thing about this is that he played in the pro-am at Pebble Beach. He should be wiser than he is in that regard.

Maybe he is. I'm kind of giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he does know hoe far he needs to go in every area of the game in terms of performance on the course, strokes lost, ball striking ability etc there's nothing about it on his blog as far as I can tell.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Nosevi

[Lihu]

The funny thing about this is that he played in the pro-am at Pebble Beach. He should be wiser than he is in that regard.

Agree, it's very strange.

IDK how he expects to get to their level without understanding how good he is himself? He scored 66 on the Combine, it seems like that in itself should be a good indicator.

We just all play off scratch ......... and I lose. But I don't lose quite as abysmally as I used to 

Maybe he is. I'm kind of giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he does know hoe far he needs to go in every area of the game in terms of performance on the course, strokes lost, ball striking ability etc there's nothing about it on his blog as far as I can tell.

Sure, but even Mark Crossfield lost pretty abysmally starting in the second video, he was already 2 strokes down. Guessing he lost by 4-10 strokes in just that one round? No video after the last hole after part 2.

One of the other golfers playing in their foursome seemed like he was better than Mark, possibly a better plus handicap than Mark?

[DrvFrShow]

One thing about Mark's video I caught was the remark he made in the beginning about pushing a trolley vs riding a buggy. He's used to riding. Golf is an entirely different game when you're walking a course than it is when you're riding. If you're used to riding around it can make you soft for the back 9.

 

[Shorty]

The funny thing about this is that he played in the pro-am at Pebble Beach. He should be wiser than he is in that regard.

He did not play in the pro-am at Pebble Beach. He played on the Monday following the tournament. 

[Lihu]

One thing about Mark's video I caught was the remark he made in the beginning about pushing a trolley vs riding a buggy. He's used to riding. Golf is an entirely different game when you're walking a course than it is when you're riding. If you're used to riding around it can make you soft for the back 9.

I agree that golf is really easy when you ride a cart versus walking and pushing, but I doubt that's why he played so badly as compared with Lee Westwood.

One thing I've noticed in the pros is their smoothness. Even really good amateurs look like they are working to hit the ball. Every time I read about someone making a "nice easy swing" to 300 yards, I think .

[Shorty]

I agree that golf is really easy when you ride a cart versus walking and pushing, but I doubt that's why he played so badly as compared with Lee Westwood.

 

That is completely absurd. Unless you are playing an incredibly hilly course on an incredibly hot day and/or are elderly or infirm, you have a serious problem if walking the course affects your score.

In fact, carts make my game worse. In a ddition to sitting, which is bad for the back, I like to approach my ball at walking pace.

In 40+ years of playing golf and using a push/pull cart for 99.9% of my golf ( I would say I have ridden in a cart perhaps 10 times) I speak from experience.

There is nothing sadder than seeing a young (presumably healthy) man riding in a golf cart.

What's more, if you are in a golf cart and you think you are engaging in a healthy pursuit, you (not you, Lihu) are mistaken. You may as well be watching TV. Especially if smoking cigars and drinking alcohol or "sports drinks" is part of your golf experience.

 

Now. On topic.

Mark Crossfield would beat Dan by 10 shots any day of the week.

Mark Crossfield could not make a living playing minor tours anywhere in the world.

Dan thinks he is on track to play PGATour.

Presumably, he thinks that potentially he is closer to Westwood than Crossfield.

Go figure.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Shorty

[Lihu]

That is completely absurd. Unless you are playing an incredibly hilly course on an incredibly hot day and/or are elderly or infirm, you have a serious problem if walking the course affects your score.

In fact, carts make my game worse. In a ddition to sitting, which is bad for the back, I like to approach my ball at walking pace.

In 40+ years of playing golf and using a push/pull cart for 99.9% of my golf ( I would say I have ridden in a cart perhaps 10 times) I speak from experience.

There is nothing sadder than seeing a young (presumably healthy) man riding in a golf cart.

What's more, if you are in a golf cart and you think you are engaging in a healthy pursuit, you (not you, Lihu) are mistaken. You may as well be watching TV. Especially if smoking cigars and drinking alcohol or "sports drinks" is part of your golf experience.

 

Now. On topic.

Mark Crossfield would beat Dan by 10 shots any day of the week.

Mark Crossfield could not make a living playing minor tours anywhere in the world.

Dan thinks he is on track to play PGATour.

Presumably, he thinks that potentially he is closer to Westwood than Crossfield.

Go figure.

I never mentioned that your score would go up, but that it's much easier because you don't have to walk. Carts allow you to play much faster, though.

Mark Crossfield is likely a plus handicap so, I'm guessing that he would beat Dan by more than 10 strokes? Although, Dan's 83 at Pebble Beach indicates some level of competence?

[Shorty]

I never mentioned that your score would go up, but that it's much easier because you don't have to walk.

I don't believe it makes golf easier unless you are crippled or playing in horrendous heat or humidity.

[Lihu]

I don't believe it makes golf easier unless you are crippled or playing in horrendous heat or humidity.

Maybe, but I can only comfortably walk 18 holes in a day. I tried 36 holes and that was a bit too much for me. Whereas, I've played 27 holes in a golf cart in a day and would have liked to have played double that time permitting. . .

[Nosevi]

Personally I always carry. Don't really like using a trolley, carts are fun for a laugh but not for when you're supposedly engaged in a sport. I'm told by clever people at the academy that carrying your clubs vs using a cart or trolley will cost you about half a shot a round on average. Stats can prove anything though.

Regarding Mark Crossfield he turned teaching pro off scratch. Maybe he got a little better or maybe a little worse but Gamegolf has him pinned at +0.5 right now. 

Random Mark Crossfield link.....

 

[tdiii]

That is completely absurd. Unless you are playing an incredibly hilly course on an incredibly hot day and/or are elderly or infirm, you have a serious problem if walking the course affects your score.

You clearly do not drink enough and smoke enough cigars while playing. 

[Lihu]

You clearly do not drink enough and smoke enough cigars while playing. 

Had to give you a + on that one!

I have to admit that one time I walked and drank a few beers, I was not finding the fairways. That is, I hit my ball into them, but couldn't find the fairway or my balls.

[natureboy]

Personally I always carry. Don't really like using a trolley, carts are fun for a laugh but not for when you're supposedly engaged in a sport. I'm told by clever people at the academy that carrying your clubs vs using a cart or trolley will cost you about half a shot a round on average. Stats can prove anything though.

Regarding Mark Crossfield he turned teaching pro off scratch. Maybe he got a little better or maybe a little worse but Gamegolf has him pinned at +0.5 right now. 

I believe it. One reason you will see many college teams here doing so. However, with your goal carrying should be a training exercise as Jack saw it for himself in his college years. You can enjoy the physical advantage of the extra energy when you have a pro caddy.

BTW, now that you are at least a year into your program, what's the update on official handicap? Shouldn't you have at least a yearly progress check?