draw vs fade - iron distance

[Gerald]

OK all thanks for the theoretical view on how draw/fade sidespin don't differ in roll after landing, but for me it still is that the fade has more backspin ...... okay or it flies higher, lands steeper and has more bite.

(I an imagine that actual figures on a Trackman will also show more backspin and a higher launch angle from a fade vs. draw)

Any Pro playing a fade into the green will tell you, they play a fade because it holds better ......... maybe it is not scientific, but none will argue !

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Individual players may hit their draw longer, because they're doing something else in the swing, but again, if the conditions are the same, they will go the same length.

BTW, when are we gonna go play a round? Not this weekend obviously with the weather, maybe in the next month. I want to show you my 350 yard drive...............

Are you playing at Calgary International Airport or what? We could meet at Olds - a great track and not too expensive - or you could seek your revenge on The Canal?!?

endhighjack/

The last two rounds I had the same 200 yard approach. I played one as a very slight fade and had an eagle putt from the back of the green. The one yesterday I played as a slight draw and it went longer because I missed the green left and the ball scooted down the slope. A ball missing right would have been in the bunker. The difference in distance was due to a miss, but if I insist on playing a draw to that green, I'm going to hit less club. I think some of the physics brought into this discussion is more perception than fact, but if Gerald (or another player) finds they have shorter putts playing a fade, they should go that route.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

BTW, when are we gonna go play a round? Not this weekend obviously with the weather, maybe in the next month. I want to show you my 350 yard drive...............

Uhhhhh maybe in October if I can find the time to visit BC for Steelhead ......

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Gerald

OK all thanks for the theoretical view on how draw/fade sidespin don't differ in roll after landing, but for me it still is that the fade has more backspin ...... okay or it flies higher, lands steeper and has more bite.

More backspin sounds plausible. With the same angle of attack, same horizontal angle of attack and more loft, the difference in angle between the clubhead and dynamic loft will increase. Any time you make that angle larger, you are adding spin. Spin helps the ball climb higher, land at a steeper angle and have a bit more backspin. I think the landing angle is the major factor here.

Now, to a slightly related situation. I'm hitting a push-draw, which means the clubface is open to the target at impact. My draw is high and lands very soft. If I open the clubface more to hit a fade, it'll go even higher land land even softer. But I won't get the low long shot if I'm not pulling the ball. If I opened the clubface and moved the ball back in my stance, I could probably hit a pretty identical shot to my draw. Ball back means I can get more forward leaning shaft and possibly achieve the same launch angle as when I'm hitting a draw.

Actually, if you want to hit a fade and draw with a similar trajectory, you'd may want to move the ball forward on a draw and back on a fade to make up for the change in loft. This will however change the angle of attack a little too, which would affect spin rate. The theoretical ideal way to hit two similar trajectories is probably by changing the swing path and keep the same clubface angle. This is however in reality a more difficult approach since changing the swing path is difficult, especially at such small amounts that we are talking about.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Zeph

. . . The theoretical ideal way to hit two similar trajectories is probably by changing the swing path and keep the same clubface angle. This is however in reality a more difficult approach since changing the swing path is difficult, especially at such small amounts that we are talking about.

That's probably why a lot of players keep their swingpath fairly constant and adjust their alignment and clubface angle in order to vary their fade or draw spin. This could contribute to discrepancies in approach distance.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Are you playing at Calgary International Airport or what? We could meet at Olds - a great track and not too expensive - or you could seek your revenge on The Canal?!?

endhighjack/

Canal would be good, except when you witness me play that course you'll think "WTF 30 handicap"

[B of H]

a high draw and a stock fade for me go about the same.  a low draw goes further by quite a bit as I deloft it considerably.  Here is how I look at it for my own game for instance:

5-iron carry:

stock fade: 190

stock draw: 192

low draw: 200

low fade: 175-180 (or even as little as 170 if I really want to keep it down)

high fade: 180-185

[Gerald]

uhhhhhh when I read this ........ I am a longggggggg way from becoming a low single digit

[Kieran123]

Try and not think about it too much, especially on the course...that stuff will mess with you.

[iacas]

Very simple guys:

These are both 5˚ of spin axis (which is a pretty healthy amount of "sidespin"...).

If you were a lefty, these would be your fade and draw, respectively.

Again, there are four kinds of these shots:

1. Pull-Draw
2. Pull-Fade
3. Push-Draw
4. Push-Fade

The pull-fade will arguably go farther and land hotter than the push-draw. The pull-draw will arguably go farther and land hotter than the push-fade.

A pull-draw will arguably go farther and land hotter than the pull-fade. The push-draw will arguably go farther and land hotter than the push-fade.

See the pattern?

[TourSpoon]

Boy, that's a lot to think about standing on the first tee. Hit the fade!

[WUTiger]

Quote:

... Any Pro playing a fade into the green will tell you, they play a fade because it holds better ......... maybe it is not scientific, but none will argue !

Years ago I took some lessons from a pro down in Texas, a former Division I college player. He had played a lot of golf in Texas and Oklahoma where the prairie winds blow strong much of the year.

Looked up my old lesson notes, and here are his ideas on fade vs. draw:

• Draw is a more powerful shot - useful to beat the wind - but is harder to keep "in tune."
• Fade is a safer (softer-landing) shot, and works better if your swing is off, BUT fade-only golf can be difficult on windy courses, and when facing greens with false fronts.

[B of H]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

Years ago I took some lessons from a pro down in Texas, a former Division I college player. He had played a lot of golf in Texas and Oklahoma where the prairie winds blow strong much of the year.

Looked up my old lesson notes, and here are his ideas on fade vs. draw:

Draw is a more powerful shot - useful to beat the wind - but is harder to keep "in tune."

Fade is a safer (softer-landing) shot, and works better if your swing is off, BUT fade-only golf can be difficult on windy courses, and when facing greens with false fronts.

this is precisely what my experience is regarding this subject.

[LankyLefty]

I am incapable of hitting a Draw that is not a low bullet that rolls forever and always seems to roll into places I don't want It to go. So I don't hit it very often.

I would say the notion that draw travels longer then a fade is probably because most people I have seen who don't have very much control tend to hit fades really high and short. While these same people will pull a draw and have it go a mile because they don't deloft the club on their draws.

I also think a lot of people tend to think the grass is greener on the other side because then I hit nasty slices all the time on the occasional draw I did hit it looked a lot nicer then my terrrible slice.

There is also of course the notion of Draw Biased clubs. Their are no "Fade Bias" clubs so a draw must be better right?

Looking back after further research I must admit upon review my first post in this thread is pretty ignorant.

There is no difference based on the spin of the ball although there surely is in the way people hit them.

[Steel]

Hey Gerald, I'll trade you, you can have my natural draw, you can give me your natural fade.  When the draw is going south its a nasty snap hook!   Fore left Look out 2 fairways over!  look what happened to McIlroy at the Masters, ouch!!!  I am currently working on the push fade especially with the driver, the irons i can control pretty well but the driver is killing me sometimes.  As far as the back spin discussion, I can back up my 8 - wedge with a draw, it does this funky hop straight left and then makes an S pattern backing up, 9 and wedges sometimes 10-15 feet its crazy to see, makes my playing partners laugh

[saevel25]

I like the fade, because its easier for me to hit. Its hard for me to get the club comming from the inside enough to hit a draw. I like the fade because i am naturally a long hitter, so i got alot of airtime, and i can clear things and stop the ball fast. My 4-iron to an elevated green will stop on the green, no running through the green. I know when i need it, i can play a small fade.

To say one is better than the other is idiotic in my opinion. They both been played by a multitude of players on the tour with ton of success.

[CalBoomer]

All of this talk about which shot, fade or draw, stops quicker and runs out less really does not address one of the main reasons that the fade is a preferable shot in critical situations under pressure. When a fade is properly hit, the club face contacts the ball too early in the swing for the wrists to roll and close the club face. A draw is just more sensitive to wrist action than is the fade. It was not just Trevino, but also Hogan and Nicklaus who preferred the fade in situations where accuracy and control were critical, especially with the longer clubs. Of course, for a high short wedge shot, it probably makes little difference.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

When a fade is properly hit, the club face contacts the ball too early in the swing for the wrists to roll and close the club face. A draw is just more sensitive to wrist action than is the fade.

Also incorrect ("also" in reference to your comment about drawing the driver in the other thread). If you're a pull-fader you've likely "released" the club or "rolled the wrists" more than the guy who plays a push-draw.

You can hit really, really big draws without "rolling the wrists" at all. In fact, that's the way we teach it...

I get what you're trying to say, Cal, but please understand that there are four kinds of shots (ignoring the ones that start "straight"):

push-draw

push-fade

pull-draw

pull-fade

The first two don't have much "rolling" and are hit with a clubface that has more loft than the last two, which have (relatively) more "rolling" of the wrists.